In Harry Turtledove’s Powerless, the citizens of the West Coast People’s Democratic Republic know their place and they know what’s expected of them. One day, however, one citizen decides not to hang the obligatory Workers of the World, Unite! propaganda poster in his window…and soon, the entire political order is crashing down around him. So, what does this work of alternative history tell us about our own political predicament, and what does it reveal about the dangers of political transitions? This month on Film, Literature and the New World Order, James discusses the Prometheus Award-nominated Powerless with author John C. A. Manley.
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SHOW NOTES
“The Power of the Powerless” by Vaclav Havel
“Tired of Giving Lies a Helping Hand” – A review of Harry Turtledove’s Best Novel finalist Powerless
• Much Ado About Corona: A novel about a baker who refuses to comply https://muchadoaboutcorona.com/
• All the Humans Are Sleeping: A novel about a farmer, a robot and the end of the world https://allthehumansaresleeping.com/
• John C.A. Manley’s Blazing Pine Cone Email Newsletter:https://blazingpinecone.com/subscribe/
NEXT MONTH: New Atlantis by Francis Bacon
I was thrilled and excited for this very rare live chat with Corbett and guest John C.A. Manley.
The schedule was a little tricky, thought it ended too early, and loved the discussion.
I did read this book, and there were some unanswered questions about the plot and the back story of this alternate timeline.
Luckily for the readers, the author of “Powerless” is still alive.
So I contacted Harry Turtledove’s literary agent. I sent him a nice email asking if Turtledove would be willing to answer questions about his alternative timeline universe…and he said yes.
So I sent him a series of questions.
And he answered all of them.
Here are the answers to questions and comments:
Hi Harry,
Thanks for the response. I have more questions:
5) Is Comrade Mary Ann Hannegan based / inspired on or by an HOA Compliance Officer?
Answer: No. She’s based on a woman I used to know.
6) In the Powerless timeline, Is there a porn industry in the San Fernando Valley?
Answer: Not aboveground.
7) (more of a comment) Considering the current state of California, Charlie Simpkin’s life almost resembles the American Dream in comparison to the reality of most working class people in Southern California. When the book club was in discussion about this book, I remembered that story of Christian Missionaries attempting to minister to a group of Eskimos, warning them about Hell and the Lake of Fire, and the Eskimos asked “A Lake of Fire? How do we get there?”
He’s actually got it pretty good.
He’s got a stay-at-home wife, with two children, an apartment in Canoga Park, ALL on a single salary as a produce manager. And this is supposed to be dystopian?
Answer: He’s in line for a car, in line for a TV, liable to end up in a reeducation camp if he gets out of line…You do you.
8) I’m curious why the story doesn’t lean deeper into the pitfalls of Communism? Sure, the State may cover all your fundamental, basic needs, but what about the Nihilism that comes when the State stagnates people’s lives? More than just alcoholism, but other forms of escapism, like gambling, use of street drugs like heroin, prostitution, obsessions with specific sports (like chess)? Considering that Charlie is moving through this world of a certain class of people, they seem cleaner and free from most of the vices they would probably have. Were you self-censoring for a specific audience?
Answer: Because I don’t like lecturing, basically.
I did not enjoy this book.
But, I appreciate the fact that the author was willing to answer these questions. His answers were a bit curmudgeonly, but what am I going to do? I figured if I sent him a third email I would be pushing my luck, so I stopped asking questions.
I lived in the San Fernando Valley, and all the questions I asked were related to the culture of Southern California.
I thought the characters weren’t very well developed and the women were written like stick figure, paper mache, sketches of the general idea of what a woman might be. But he didn’t seem game for an actual discussion on that. So I dropped it.
But yeah, I didn’t like the book.
Bird
Thank you for doing that.
Mr Turtledove is a very prolific writer best known for his alt history. We think he may have a bunch of clones chained to type writers in his vellar……One of his Cross Time books ( The Gladiator) is set in the same kinda of scenario as powerless, in Communist Italy and the other worlders are subverting communist ideology via introducing Board Games to get folks thinking about other ways of doing things.
Other stuff happens but that was the most interesting idea (For me ) in the story….an aside is that they still have a (Soviet) microstate (san marini IIRC) where folks go to buy black market stuff….the psychology of cops there beating Fk out of people claiming to be KGB on “their” turf stuck me as insightful too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gladiator_(Turtledove_novel)
His “household gods” is also pretty good, he is one of the best for writing prolific numbers of characters while also giving them their own “voice”. His “strange flesh” book , in an America where colonist have to deal with proto humans and mega fauna, is also pretty good. It’s set over a couple of centuries.
I think his books are for a niche audience. A very specific type of person. I don’t think I’m part of his ideal demographic, which is probably why I did not enjoy this book.
But I think it’s great that he does have an audience that appreciates his writing. Good for him. I’m happy people are having a good time.
1) In the “Powerless” alternate timeline, is there an entertainment industry in Southern California?
Answer: 1. Yes. The weather and lighting are too good for there not to be.
2) Did the Golden Age of Hollywood take place? Did they make silent films? Was Rudolph Valentino born and did he become a superstar?
Answer: . One assumes that in a different world the precise films will also be different, especially after the political changes that make this a world not our own.
3) is there an aerospace industry? Do planes exist and are they building them in Southern California? Does Howard Hughes exist? Did the Spruce Goose exist?
Answer: There are airplanes. Space travel, I think, isu defined in this universe. The Soviet Union will not want anyone else making better, more sophisticated machines than it does itself. That would be dangerous.
4) if the entertainment industry does not exist, why are the names of the cities in the San Fernando Valley still consistent with the existence of the entertainment industry (Studio City is still Studio City in the Powerless timeline.)
Answer: (1) answers this. Hope that helps.
Bird
I think the idea of the weather being the reason for an entertainment industry is a bit and wavey of him (but since I am not a well known author I can’t complain;) ) because New York used to have a film industry and that’s not known for its great climate.
Iirc the Hollywood movie industry migrated there to avoid Edison’s patent suits but going far away. Edison was super upset IIRC because he didn’t want people making degenerate crap that the NY Jews wanted to make.
The move was about jurisdiction not climate but I guess that universe could have had an Edison type doing the same thing.
https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2021/03/thomas-edison-the-unintentional-founder-of-hollywood/
Some pre code movies are super dark and gross, but Hollywood had to clean up its act after the Catholics boycotted them into adopting the film code…..they broke the code with “the pawn broker” and that was the end of that
I asked him that question because the film and television industry employs a metric ton of people in the San Fernando Valley. (Not to mention the porn industry, which the Valley is famous for, and this story is set in the neighborhoods where all THOSE films were made) all kinds of people from carpenters, to costumes, to electricians, craft services, etc. all employed by the studios.
Seems like there would be more mention of the creation of propaganda media, even peripherally.
You have to try, really really hard to not have any kind of ties with not a single person involved with the entertainment industry in some capacity, if you live in the San Fernando Valley.
You have to be a special kind of hermit for that.
Bird
You have to remember that Mr Turtledove is Jewish , and as such the porn industry is kinda a touchy subject since it was (actually still is) a kinda Jew washed industry.
That’s what I suspect the reason was, even though he personally is afaik not in any way related to that sty……but I don’t think that in that world there would be MUCH porn anyway, certainly nothing like the amount we see in the “free world” . I also don’t think that the book suffers from that though, because we see thru the eyes of the MC and he is just an ignorant working joe who hardly knows any history. That’s pretty much most people, for most of history.
I mean, ask the guy down the 7/11 about when the civil war happened and chances are he will know less then the MC in the book.
Also the movies would be made by state owned studios which would mean they could put out any trash on any tiny budget and folks would still have to watch for lack of anything else……so the industry would be much smaller
The Entertainment industry being smaller makes a lot of sense, actually.
I guess I didn’t register that he’s Jewish. Not to speak broadly, but, that checks out. Explains some things that I was chocking up to his age / generation/ being a curmudgeon.
I wanted to ask him why he would write a book that’s focused on the movement of agricultural products in that specific area (other than the fact that he physically lives there in real life)
He could have set it in Oxnard, or Bakersfield, or somewhere where there’s actual fields of produce being grown and processed in warehouses and put on trucks.
The San Fernando Valley is this rolling series of suburbs. They call them “bedroom” communities.
And in this story, he’s making a deal with the local college that’s growing vegetables? It’s a head scratcher, considering the massive amounts of fruits and vegetables grown on the I -5 corridor.
I have to remember that this book is a hypothetical, and some kind of libertarian work of propaganda against socialism.
It’s not supposed to be real life.
I’m just annoyed that he used the real map of the SFV, instead of renaming all the streets fictional names.
It’s like, lazy.
It irks me.
He just left the names of the real life real estate developers who named the streets after themselves.
It feels like a big ass mess.
Super stoked that you posted the recorded version! I wasn’t able to make the livestream but I read the book with the intention of participating in some shape or form. I’m looking forward to watching the discussion. Please keep the book club going, James! Even if there aren’t many people who can make the livestream, I bet there are quite a few people who appreciate the analysis after it’s aired.
I missed it to. Lesson for me is to read the newsletter on the day it is released 🙂
Shows how paranoid I’ve become that I suspected Eichenlode was some kind of “let 100 flowers bloom” hopium psyop to lure dissidents into the open. Eichenlode turning out to be genuine was a real twist for me.
But was he genuine?
I got the feeling he really was not trying to subvert communism or create real democracy or even excessive freedom – just enough to improve state performance. I thought he was trying to do a China and loosen things up enough that things got better. Gorbachev never had any interest in destroying the Soviet Union but things got away from him, just like they did in the book. Luckily the hard liners were not able to. Crack down IRL like they did in the book.
I thought he was just taking on the role of martyr after the fact because he was already thru with the establishment and his one chance of not getting ice picked was to be beloved enough that killing he would cause unrest.
I think you’re right that he was more of a Gorbachev character. But I mean he was genuine in that he wasn’t just there to trick dissidents into putting their heads above the parapet.
Meowking
That’s true …. I think it was the Spartans who invented that trick….they asked a bunch of the slave class to volunteer to fight in return for freedom and then whacked them all on the basis that these were the ones that bore watching
Yes, my impression, too, was that he wanted better for everyone, but was still aiming for a paradigm that included communism, just a freer version He just didn’t realize that voluntary communism is impossible. It would evolve into free market. The Russians knew that, hence the tanks.
Bird,
Hat tip to you for extra effort. Above and beyond . I wish more of that on this country. I chased down a couple a my Congress Critters and the ridiculous responses were just that, ridiculous. You never know untill you try.
Thanks for trying.
Thanks!
For some reason the first set of questions and answers didn’t post, I posted them under my main comment
I was unable to participate in the live event, but I was delighted to see that James had posted the recording. The discussion between him and Manley considered some aspects I hadn’t thought of myself.
I read the book rather quickly. I found myself anxious to discover whether my expectations were going to materialize in the pages that followed. As to critiques, I have several, but I will limit myself to a few here:
I agree with what another Corbett Report member said about the female characters in the book: they really were depicted as stick figures, with no apparent purpose other than to serve as sounding boards. Even the harridan, Mary Ann Hannegan, provided little beyond acting as a kind of commie contrast to Charlie Simpkins’s unpolitical non-compliance.
Turtledove’s very apparent, dated, and trope-dependent bias toward Southerners, found in a few of his other novels—most notably The Guns of the South—is repeated, none too subtly, in this yarn. Among the invaders of the WCPDR, the thugs of the Southern Confederated People’s Republic are depicted as lynch-happy bigots and vandals.
A considerable amount of ink is spent relating, over and again, Charlie’s bus rides, newspaper reading, trips to the bar, and listening to the radio. In short, Turtledove could have been more creative in how he got his message across. This, among other things, prevented the book from being as good as it could have been.
For me, the main takeaway from the novel was why Alex Eichenlode’s attempted reforms ultimately failed. I say “reforms” because there is no indication that Eichenlode actually abandoned the goal of reaching “True Communism.” They failed because, despite experiencing a “loosening up” in the system that led to a more open press, access to better food and supplies, and an expansion of free speech, the citizens—read slaves—of the WCPDR had no experience in community cooperation, only collective compliance.
As Havel suggests in his essay The Power of the Powerless, people living within these post-totalitarian systems are encouraged to rat on one another. One cannot even trust one’s own children, for they may very well be informers. This reality leads to the atomization of the community into a compliant “collective” of frightened individuals, terrified to do the only thing that could actually break their chains: talk to their neighbors and organize against their slave masters.
Ultimately, we see this play out in the story after the Russian invasion. The people are initially verbally and physically defiant. As I read, I even felt my pulse quicken, hoping these former slaves would finally unite and take matters into their own hands, ending their collective nightmare—but it wasn’t to be. Falling back into their legacy training as compliant, frightened individuals, they folded. The “reformers” were vanquished, and every living soul—whether a lowly citizen or a high party official—found themselves encapsulated within the tyranny of the ossified system.
In regard to the “stick figures,” I can sympathize with the author trying to depict 3D characters, when those characters grew up in an oppressive culture that stifles any kind of individual expression or thought.
I had the same issue with my novel, Much Ado About Corona. I completely scrapped the villain, Constable McKenzie, after the third draft and recreated him from scratch.
Mary Ann Hannegan was like a one-woman Greek Chorus. I was a little surprised she didn’t wander into one of the later scenes to wrap things up.
MeowKing
“….. was like a one-woman Greek Choru……”
That is a very good observation! Thanks for point ing it out.
I was not quite done with the book, so I didn’t get in on the livestream. However, I enjoyed listening to it. I also thought that it had to take place in the 50s/60s/70s, because of the technology used and mentioned. After several visits by Mary Ann Hannegan, I thought that there might be a sexual encounter in the offing. Especially, the way Charlie described her a couple times, but that never happened. I also wondered why General Secretary Zhuravlev went to all the trouble to get rid of Tony Newman and replace him with Eichenlode, and then not be more “supportive” of Eichenlode in the long run. Also, Charlie always had enough money for the vices, such as cigarettes and the bars. In fact, there was never a time where Charlie and his wife ever complained about money issues at all. There was always enough. I did suspect that Eichenlode would betray everyone after getting them used to “loosened up communism”. I did not expect it to end the way it did. I think It was a good book, and I always was wondering how things would turn out.
It was in the 21st century IMO- his other book “the gladiator “ takes place in Italy in a very similar world and they are definitely in the future….without incentives to improve there would be little progress in tech . The Soviet Union and east bloc were very backwards compared to the West in the day because the entrenched interests didn’t want to move away from heavy industries into new stuff because the personal power and position of the people in power would have been harmed. Also it’s not like there was anywhere else people could get cars and TVs or movies or anything that was badly made and never advanced.
IRL the Soviets had plenty of western tech to copy, and could make some cool tech in very limited fields, like Ames or space flight, but could never really advance on their own past about the last 60s or early 70s.
They were totally unable to compete in consumer goods, light industry or computers. If they had won the Cold War tech would have developed even slower, both because there was no competition driving them to advance and because there would be no drive to improve military tech (I got the idea there were no A bombs in this world)
TBH most of history has been very steady state, if you were born in 1700 BC and lived until 1700 AD you would see some improvement in technology but nothing would really shock you. Now run 1700 to 1900 and it’s a very different world, 1900 to 2000 and it’s like an alien planet and 2000 to today is almost as different as the hundred years before it.
iirc Marx himself saw Capitalism as vital in moving the world into a stage where it could go Communist….he was kinda an accelerationist tech bro himself.
Writing your own perceptions are exposing ones own flaws.
(1) how to be a critic. – by ayan artan – rent free. https://share.google/xkLyK6sX8xr5a0IHu
Time diolates, and science fiction doesn’t care . The suspended reality suspends time, space and reality.. So it would correct to say in that vacuum of space created by Turtledove is timeless. If I said the year had to be xyorz I would be correct . It’s not all about you though, but that is not a big enough speed bump to slow you down , now is it…
Prometheus Award? Not a chance. Lovecraft tried and had just about as much a chanced. Lovecraft did get a Retro Hugo. So maybe.
GBW
True, but seeing one’s own failures in thinking is useful information, and the whole point of the stream was for people to talk about the book. Seeing our weak points makes us stronger and seeing weak points in the author’s work is the point. He does not need us to kiss his ass, he is already very successful
Authors often know more then they actually know, because a good writer is running a simulation in his mind and even the author can miss what that simulation tells us…..
To me the interesting thing with Counter Factual stories is that they let you tests reality vs possible ways things could have turned out…..other wise i might as well read Twilight or an A team story because those are just for entertainment and there is little wisdom to mine from them. They do not warrant deep consideration, only good books do
it’s actually worth thinking about what year the story takes place In because that lets you consider things like tech progress and incentives and competition…..THAT lets you consider the possible end points of crony capitalism and where the economy is likely to go. Likewise comparing the modern life with the MCs life also makes you realize that much as his life sucked compared to ours it had certain advantages compared to the IRL modern world.
Mr Turtledove is a very fine writer, one of my favorite fiction authors, but if you read as much of his stuff as I have you can see that he also tends to be a wee bit weak on certain things because no one is perfect on everything
Duck,
Did you even read Ayan Artans essay on being a critic.? I do enjoy your gumption. The book only needs to be written once . Read twice , pedere once
GBW
Are you getting ChatGot to write your replies?
What exactly are you saying?
I responded to
“….. Writing your own perceptions are exposing ones own flaws….”
With agreement and pointed out that can be useful to you. You yourself can only find your own flawed thinking when you examine what you think – hence journaling is used as a therapy tool and for self examination and such like.
“….
(1) how to be a critic. – by ayan ….”
No one here is a critic, we don’t get paid to write out thoughts about stuff down for folks. Thus the article kinda does not apply to anyone on some comment section
“…..Time diolates, and science fiction doesn’t care . The suspended reality suspends time, space and reality….”
This book didn’t have issues with any of those, but all good fiction has to have a consistent world if it’s to give the mental illusion of reality and immerse its reader in its world. That does not require “reality” (we don’t see dwarves and dragons but plenty of folks immerse in Lord Of Yhe Rings) but it DOES require internal consistency.
Any book wanting to immerse its reader has to keep the world it creates with words working on the same set of rules, and TBH I think this book did that so what are you complaining about?
“… So it would correct to say in that vacuum of space created by Turtledove is timeless….”
NO it’s not.
The book has internal history that causes the events in it. There are no martians or nazi empire or narnians or whatever. Mr Turtledove HAS written books with aliens (fighting nazis !) and they are also good because he keeps the world consistent.
He literally makes aliens fighting nazis and Soviets believable thru consistent world building
The East coast events that caused the last Russian invasion happened in the books time line and affect the outcome of the story.
“….
If I said the year had to be xyorz I would be correct ….”
Then why comment about the book in any way or have any opinion on it?
“…. It’s not all about you though, but that is not a big enough speed bump to slow you down , now is it…”
Dude THE COMMENTS SECTION WHERE WE ARE EXPLICITLY TOLD TO GIVE OUR THOUGHTS is exactly the place for them.
Wtf are you smoking????
“….,,,,,
Prometheus Award? Not a chance. Lovecraft tried and had just about as much a chanced. Lovecraft did get a Retro Hugo. So maybe…”
Dude seriously are you OK? What are you saying?
I read the Ayan Artans essay. (I found it idiotic and absurd)
Unlike this proud professional, I am just an amateur critic. I will not give my reasons for disliking her essay. But if there is any doubt, please, anyone, everyone, read it for yourself.
That’s the spirit Hanky !
Sincerely, I can’t tell if you agree with me, or are opposing my incomplete critique.
Hanky
You may be the only one other than me to have read the critics view.
Her only real insight was the duel position one has in being a critic and being a book club participant. Also, to give the artwork a second viewing before the emotional trigger explodes all over the place .
Bird and you had emotional reactions to this fantasy and this Authors schtick. I’d say you were triggered by nostalgia. I had posted some PubMed about the Chinese studies on the effects of nostalgia recently . Maybe Turtledoves’ talent is in the subtle stimulation of nostalgia in this genre. History has to be part of ones nostalgia triggering memories. Maybe I’m wrong.
My hope was to draw people to the book club stimulus and away from the art critic stimulus by showing the absurdity of the cold mechanical critics view opposing the warmth of the humanistic view.
You and Bird had the most authentic responses . What I would say is the entire spirit of what a book club could be . That kinda stuff makes this subscription magazine one of a kind in popularity and appeal, I’m sure there’s all kinds of literary names and categories for it. My book club slogan can be applied here as well. The facts are sourced three deep sometimes but for a book club …
Read twice, pedere once.
Forgive me, I am still not clear on whether you straightforwardly endorse the Ayan Artans essay, or not. I found it to be ridiculous Ultra-woke arrogant garbage.
PS I did not comment on the POWERLESS book. I do however, regularly point out that socialism and communism are forever popular because of the valid nostalgia that we all feel for the nuclear family of our childhood. Each to his need…etc. This does not scale up nicely, especially in diverse cultures, but it gives the fools and demagogues a foothold in every generation.
Hanky,
I straightforwardly agree ,it was Classic NYC woke snobbish or arrogant garbage on Critique and how to become a critic. But it was useful in showing the difference between the audience agency and the advertising agency.
You must forgive me in assuming what you said down below as a response to HRS.
[” tangential personal anecdotes for this venue.”]
I thought you couldn’t have said a better real life encounter with a Mary Ann Hannaghan thinking work experience than the story you related. Applied to this venue, it was touching.
if I may quote Duck , on the Turtledove book…
[” Dude THE COMMENTS SECTION WHERE WE ARE EXPLICITLY TOLD TO GIVE OUR THOUGHTS is] what ? , just for Turtledove thoughts? I guess not.
Well you showed thats possible. Is there a Heloise or Dear Abby etiquette to book clubs ?
Rules not Barn yard Rulers. I hoped everyone could have penned their thoughts on this book like Bird and you did. Even though you didn’t.
I can see why only an English Major would venture into these shark invested waters.
Basically I am
Still the Same.
I fight authority, Authority Always Wins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtZbk_5pbf0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsEwK69LXjQ&t=4s
Duck × 5.
You can’t determine from the book it was on planet Earth more or less whether it was set in the future, past or any time. 2184 or 3010. It’s a fantasy of his making and anything you add to it is …your opinion of how it fails. What I can cifer with all those iirc,irl , VD, imho and usucs it’s hard to understand you. Type the 3 or 4 extra letters please. You can’t rewrite the book and make it any different than when it was born.
It fails as Science Fiction, and so very thin for fantasy it doesn’t stand a chance at any literary reward. What in the non spinning world is Counter factual? The Editors and San Francisco Hollywood writers settled these categories of literature back in the 50s, 60, and 70s. He’s no Robert Howard , the book is no Old Yellar or Where the Red Fern Grows. It’s more of a Silverberg novelet, fantasy devoid of sex. Don’t get me wrong, It was pleasant to read , from page to frontal lobe it was ok. True , but is the dumbest of things to say , but the book club is for how the author made you feel? Did his literary talent go above and beyond in triggering a response, a though , a belief ?. Since none here can claim to be in the writers Guild we should follow Artan’s advice on being a critic.
The second read is where most will find the ability to hold to personal triggering and an authentic critique and how to recognize, reconcile, and separate the two . This is why I asked you if you had read what she wrote . It would be clear to most you didn’t. I take back the maybe he could get an award but only from a very Jewish, political or socialist weighted jury, not talent.
His work is certainly not to everyone’s taste, but I most certainly DO like counter factual (alternative history) books. If you don’t that’s fine.
As to how it made me “feel” ? I don’t recall going much into that myself, but that IS also a valid way to score a book. That said he is not really a very emo writer, he does what he does Very well – he mostly writes a historical event (usually a counter factual ALT history one) thru the eyes of a number of characters, and he makes each person have their own voice when we are in their POV. What more do you want from the guy?
I think you were saying he is low talent?? Whatever your drinking kinda made you hard to understand there. I disagree with that assessment of his skill- he is a very crisp writer who churns out decent work at a rapid rate, and at decent quality. He is not “the great American author “ but he does make a LOT of stuff that’s worth reading for entertainment AND for thinking about how things “might have been” and also how things work.
So, his work is what it is. Enjoy or read something else. And YES that’s what the book club is for, how it makes us feel
And whatever it makes folks think
“… You can’t rewrite the book and make it any different than when it was born….”
Who is trying to do that? Actually what are you even saying?
“…. You can’t determine from the book it was on planet Earth more or less whether it was set in the future, past or any time. 2184 or 3010….”
You CAN determine it’s on earth
You can determine it’s AFTER the Bolshevik revolution and after the birth of Marx , Lenin and Stalin
Even assuming that “the gladiator “ is in no way a tie in (which would give a date in the 21st century) the date of the book must be AFTER the 1960s….it is very unlikely to imagine that the Bolsheviks could take over Russia and take over Europe and then the rest of the world including a possibly never United States of America in less then 50 years…….now since the main character talks about HIS parents talking quietly and keeping him “in the dark” as a kid for the same reason HE keepa his kids out of conversations he has with his wife you get a sense that it’s been commie land for a couple of generations.
Add in that the west coast holocaust in Maine was 20 years before and where he lived was already commie land and you’re looking at about 2030 to 2050 as the EARLIEST date.
Like what are you even complaining about?
“….. Since none here can claim to be in the writers Guild we should follow Artan’s advice on being a criti……”
BS
The reader IS the critic….if we don’t like what he writes we read something else.
He doesn’t need to care what we think and we don’t need to care about what he writes…..but ultimately the reader not some accredited nitwit with a certificate of competence get to decide if the books good or not.
Did you forget the silliness with movies and the modern audience??? Critics can say what they like but they don’t command butts into seats
I had two work experiences in my mid twenties that reminded me of the discussion on keeping the crappy status quo when improvements potentially arise. Not USSR, USA mid 70’s.
One was when I worked as a bus driver for emotionally and mentally damaged children. (It was the the U of P Hospital, which boasts the services of vaccinologist Dr. Paul Offit). They gave me work with the kids between the arrival and departure bus shifts. I was so successful, that I quickly earned a huge target on my back. It is clearly because I had to rely on my being authentic, and just using my wits, rather than presenting a degree from a college, and pushing a dogmatic book. I instinctively knew how to communicate with a minimum of condescension, and it dramatically trumped the failed efforts of the ‘professionals.’ I didn’t need to subject the kids to violence and drugs to survive, as did the highly paid staff. I taught them elementary gymnastics. I also had a couple of music students. These were things that I had taught myself, and knew and loved. They gave me the most incorrigible cases, and were astonished at the relatively spectacular success we had. They literally resorted to physically tackling these kids every day and injecting them with sedatives. Meanwhile we were happily and peacefully accomplishing things. Then my days there became numbered…
I apologize for bloviating about these things. Forgive this old man. The other incident actually was what first popped into my head when they talked about getting in trouble for improvements. This one was when I worked for the Army Corps of Engineers as a lowly technician. I recorded the results of the tests we ran on various mixtures of concrete and clay substrates. For no other reason than sheer boredom, I did the job to the best of my ability. What arose was the fact that I was doing more and better work than the rest of the department combined. I think (iirc) there 6 of us. Pretty soon I was put in the hot seat, surrounded by Army officers standing around me meanly intimidating me. They showed me that THEY had a record of a minor discretion from years ago, which was supposed to be expunged if I didn’t get arrested again. (It was from being on Telegraph Avenue at the time of the Berkeley riots of’69) Anyway, I never worked there another minute.
Another thing just came to me. Further apologies, for number 3. (I think that I was already 30 yrs old by then). I got a job in a natural foods warehouse, and resisted something that seemed creepy to me. I was quickly fired for saying anything. I can’t remember the exact food in question, but they were selling it as fresh, but they froze it all, and had us defrosting it with hair dryers before sending it out to the stores.
Its not just communism that features these inefficient and disingenuous practices.
Hankey
Those were interesting stories, and yes I agree that
“… It’s not just communism that features these inefficient and disingenuous practices….”
But I’d say that the lack of competition and central control of production made those things even worse in the East Bloc. I don’t know how bad we are now, but we appear to be almost on the same track so I do kinda expect something like the end of the Soviets to happen over here before too much longer
I can’t argue with that.
Here’s something that you may care to dispute…
I think our predilection for prediction is doing nothing but hastening our meeting with impending perdition. I would point out that although I enjoy writing here and having some readers, I consciously avoid making predictions. Right or wrong, it is a fad and a fool’s game. So little of it is firmly grounded in personal experience and true expertise. We want to aspire to be like the greats, like Corbett, but the net effect is mostly a weakening of our logical credibility. Is the need to predict something controlling us, or is it something with a practical use, aside from ego strokes?
Hankey
“…. think our predilection for prediction is doing nothing but hastening our meeting with impending perditio….”
What was that saying? Prediction is hard, especially about the future
At the end of the day the future is always in motion (as someone else said, lol) because there are more moving parts then we can even see. On the other hand having a general idea of where trends will tend to end up (or end because they can’t go on) is a useful thing…..but that said MORE useful is doing what rich folks do and giving yourself multiple “outs” that you can get ahead with, and putting yourself where you can miss the worse of the “weather” that you can not control – things like not living near an atomic power station or on land some one with power is prone to want to steal.
We can certainly fall into a doom cycle where we don’t do anything because “they have it all sewn up man!” Which is a disgusting cope I have heard some people use to avoid doing anything at all. I don’t see that it’s the road to hell, except if you wed your identity into an outcome…..example: I was kinda hopeful about trump, and TBH he did do a few very small things that I liked even if he was a disappointment on the whole. If I had been basing my plans on trump saving the day then YES prediction would lead to perdition. I would hav become a
Q tard or a maga tard and eventually the contradictions would have ruined my mind….as it is I can shrug and say it was worth a bit of hope and it’s not like I based my whole life operating system on him being for real.
As to being great, meh, most people are going to walk into the meat grinder at this point so if you and yours DONT end up there you “win” and it’s good enough for now.
As to being credible? Who are we wanting to be seen as credible BY? Some other dudes on the internet? Being credible Irl to people that know you is what matters, since out here in the inter webs no one really knows anyone else. This is Para social space not meat space where life and death happen
Your points are valid, in many cases, at least. I apologize for the snarky alliteration; sometimes I get too cute.
I would still caution against the pitfalls of offering too many predictions.
POSIWID… Is the main effect that of bolstering our own egos?
Hank,
I really, really, really enjoyed reading your 3 anecdotes.
And I very much understand the pitchforks which target competence and caring.
Ya know, you could compile a book of anecdotes surrounding your life.
In previous years, you’ve told me some very interesting stories. Some of the places you’ve been, things you’ve done, and the era of the day…there is some very cool stuff – historic in some ways. The skills you’ve developed along the way are impressive in themselves — I’ve seen them first-hand.
I still have mental images of the story about your Dad.
Your story #1 above reminded me of you helping a local young man (who was having a tough time) learn some things on the guitar.
Thanks for adding to our society and striving hard to make it better.
I recognize it.
Life is strange, and so am I. Thanks for your feedback. Please contact me IRL (in real life), to catch up, and to follow up. I trust that you have my phone number and email. I think that I already overdid the tangential personal anecdotes for this venue.
Hi everyone, I didn’t read the book but I found the conversation about it stimulating. I am reading Havel’s essay and came across this Havel quote which probably sums up the challenge we face in the future.
“Without a global revolution in the sphere of human consciousness, nothing will change for the better in the sphere of our being as humans, and the catastrophe toward which this world is headed—be it ecological, social, demographic, or a combination of all these—will be unavoidable.”
— Václav Havel, Disturbing the Peace (1986)
It seems to me the required “revolution” needs to be an evolution. True healing takes time, and sudden corrections cause a recoil. This is true for physical injuries, as well as societal imbalance. The problems are too vast and deep to change quickly. This will seem like bad news for many of us, but if we can set aside our desires to see widespread integrity in our current lifetime, we can take courage from just being part of something so huge. Onward and Upward! Or as Google and Oprah say, “Do Good.” 😀
Fear based thinking halts thinking.. . The wonderful thing about a book club is the space it creates for critical thinking.
It allows the most timid of people a form for expressing how a third party has made them feel. The group think can be a can of phycological worms but it allows a third party to take the hit. That being the authors work of art. It’s an exercise in civics, it builds community. Ultimately it functions as a jury of sorts… Where they will vote with their wallets as to whether to put the book on the self or in the trash can. What’s in your library? The facts are few and the fantasys are many.
https://youtube.com/shorts/EHEaJ5M1BaA
You are a sly one Mr. Cor’bett’!
We are on a path to something , critical thinking will be needed now more than ever. Nationalism is on its deathbed and Corporatism is in the atrium raring to come into the house to RULE by monopoly. Unending Profit , non existent competition. Resistance is futile. History may not necessarily repeat itself .
North
American
Zionist
Alliance
A monopoly for life. The Bolsheviks have returned and head the poles in the multi polar regions.
Are any of these statements accurate?
Well I’m done with Turtledove. Looking forward to Francis Bacon.
In the future , a book I’d suggest, because it really reminds me of this wobbly restart of FLNWO ,would be
”
” CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES” By John Kennedy Toole. 1980.
This book is possibly the Capitalists version of Power of the Powerless. Pulitzer winner for fiction. A forewarning of the state that America is in today.
Just heard Carney on CBC in a speech i dont know occured when or where talk about the Vaklav Havel essay and mention the ”Workers of the Wold Unite” poster in the window thing in relation to US/Kanada economics power relations , coercion and ”liberation” … chuckled a bit !
Hi all. This is my first real post here. I never contribute, because of my very bad English, but this time I can’t not respond.
In James’s and John’s discussion and also in some comments I noticed an admiration for Václav Havel and his work. Please, be careful. I also admired him once, but Havel became, at least since he was elected as a president of Czechoslovakia, EU supporter, NATO supporter, globalist supporter, member of Club of Rome.
(https://www.nndb.com/org/142/000056971/ or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1clav_Havel)
And also stark warmonger.
I became suspicious in 1990 when he endorsed 1.st Gulf War. He supported bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. He even labeled it as somewhat humanitarian approach.
(https://libquotes.com/v%C3%A1clav-havel/quote/lbz0b6j)
I remember I couldn’t believed it. Later on he denied the quote
(https://old.bitchute.com/video/fyx2N9Ow9JLE/), but I remember it clearly. I was so ashamed of him. And these are just a few examples. So what is the value of Havel’s clever and maybe deep essays and plays if they are in such a contrast with his actual deeds.
Hello,
I couldn’t participate to the discussion because I logged in too late (watching from California) but I’d like to add my two cents now, also because in the meantime I read James’ article on Everything we know is False and watched the Propaganda Watch episode on more or less the same topic. I did read “Powerless.”
As others have pointed out, I think that Charlie’s gesture of balling and tossing the propaganda poster he was supposed to hang was done not for ideological reasons, he was just fed up with lies and couldn’t bring himself to comply one more time.
The first consequence of this act – I noticed – was that when he got home, though conscious of the danger deriving from having broken the rules, he was (unreasonably) more alive and humorous – which his wife promptly noticed (and appreciated.) Even the kids, at first angry at their father, started being influenced positively by a certain whiff of fresh air.
Everyone started experiencing a wave of genuine creative dynamism, and all this not for defiance reasons. It’s like they couldn’t help themselves, no matter the consequences and it’s interesting that Charlie never really tried to explain the reason of his act from which he didn’t have anything to gain. Actually in the end he and his family ended up in a much worse place, surrounded by people who had also not complied one way or another, but with whom they could have a more open, at times even friendly and cooperative relationship.
In my view, this answers the question: “Was it worth it?” I wonder if the author gave this story this particular twist consciously.
Today I also watched James’ interview with Chris Mathieu where he said that the only possible revolution is existential revolution and that it has to happen (he repeated several times) between our two ears. I would add… and in our hearts and guts.