Interview 1730 – Breaking Free From Mass Formation with Mattias Desmet

by | May 30, 2022 | Interviews, Videos | 123 comments

Mattias Desmet is a Professor of Clinical Psychology at Ghent University in Belgium. His theory of mass formation during the coronavirus crisis has become widely known and widely misunderstood since gaining mainstream attention. His new book, The Psychology of Totalitarianism, lays out what mass formation is, how it develops, how it leads to totalitarianism, and what we must do to change the conditions that makes these mass formation events possible.

Watch On ArchiveBitChute  / Odysee / Download the mp4

The Psychology of Totalitarianism by Mattias Desmet

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  1. Great interview.
    I practiced a short course in hypnosis and NLP and can attest to how powerful and influential it can be on an individual. Use the same principals of focus, conditioning and repetition and you can see how it is possible to condition the masses.
    Truthstream media did an excellent video on how the power of crowds and how they wield their own consciousness one that overrides the will of the individual.

    I also really loved his analysis of rationalitty and how everything can’t be reduced to rationality or numbers and his thoughts on resonance. Reminds me of Rupert Sheldrake and how he asserts how nature, emotions and the human condition can’t be fully rationalised or digitized which is why I think (hope) the globalists and technocrats will ultimately fail.

    Altogether a brilliant interview that works on so many levels. I’m going have to watch it again to fully unpack everything presented here.

    • Thanks for the link. Do you think the people who become victim of the mass formation realize they were manipulated after the fact? Like when looking back months or years later, realizing wow, I totally fell for the BS?

  2. Thanks James for having Mr Desmet on the Corbett Report. He’s been very prominent here in the Netherlands and Belgium and makes a lot so much clearer.

    • Fantastic interview! He has been visible in Germany as well through the Corona Ausschuss – happy to hear that this book is coming out soon!

      • Although I don’t 100% agree with what he says, many of the observed effects are definitely due to mass psychology at work in a society of weak-willed and disconnected people, fed wrong information by a permanently lying mass media conglomerate.

  3. In her book HATE, Nadine Strossen provides many arguments in favor of not regulating speech as well as being very permissive even in relatively closed environments.

    One of her arguments is based on psychologists publishing that being exposed to varied and opposing positions is highly beneficial for our mental health.

    I find it interesting how many reasons there are to never have some universal rules applied in all places to all speech.

    • Very interesting! I grew up (speaking two languages) in a home where the parents disagreed on a lot of things, and ultimately divorced. I always felt that this exposure to more than one set of values improved my ability to think and reason in a more balanced way.

  4. Wow so much of this resonates with the things I have heard Ian McGilchrist talk about. The left brain is higher resolution and later developed. Great for manipulating tools and working things, while the right brain does concept. he contends the world is in the state it is in because it has become a left brain world since the scientific revolution. The right brain apparently has wisdom that the left does not. It knows it needs the left to help it manipulate the world while it makes sense of it. Whereas the left thinks it is all knowing and wants control. Hence the title of his first book, The Master and his Emmisary. James, I don’t know if this is in your wheelhouse but as I say it resonates very much with this talk. Would love to see an interview with him some time.

  5. Hard to catch everything in one view. Will have to see it again.

    There are so many truth’s out there, most of them probably genuine in some perchantage.
    It’s also true that people accept way things are… so quicky.

    Human nature is the only thing that never changes, and change is a constant.

    How to go forward?
    Is reason ever been less valuable than now?

    • whois
      “…Is reason ever been less valuable than now?,,,”

      Man is a Reasonable Animal …. loose reason an we are just Animal

  6. RE: Interview 1730 – Breaking Free From Mass Formation with Mattias Desmet

    This is such a top-grade interview that I have no words to describe it.
    I’m walking away with many wonderful insights and “Solutions”.

    In fact, this interview should also be categorized under “Solutions”.

  7. Very Good.

    The only thing Desmet’s realization of Mass Formation doesn’t take into account, is that the power elites are instigating mass formation deliberately via very refined social sciences PSYOPS for decades.. in order to DIRECT history. His lack of historical consciousness in regard to conspiracy realities constitutes an illiteracy of who, where, when and why, etc.

    Officially declassified documents immediately invalidates Desmet’s assumption of ‘coincidence theory’ (“it’s not a malevolent elite”) whereas the evidence for Directed History is an abundant almost trivial fact.

    Directed History: The idea that key events in modern history—wars, revolutions, transformations, concentrations of wealth and power, for at least the past 250 years but possibly longer—have not been random or the mere product of economic forces but were guided: directed. History has been taken in a specific direction by a powerful superelite, especially secret societies, Rothschilds and Rockefellers, etc.).

    Thus, he – his great work notwithstanding – does not name the most dangerous individual master nodes of the ruling pathocracy, i.e. the power elites who are invoking mass formation. His frame of theory describes the systemic dynamics causing evil, the evil in and between nameless nodes which constitute the mass formation.

    It would be an absurd moral logical fallacy if one did not remove evil given the opportunity fx. – not arresting Kissinger or Gates fx. – on the grounds that evil is an exchangeable psychological shadow-virus in each of us. The profound invisible truth of an exchangeable evil Wetiko-like psycho-shadow-virus in-all-of-us (like Jung poínted out) should not be seen as a moral carte blanche for misapplied mindful bystanding as great deeds have saved many lives nonetheless by immediate action, however lacking in uprooting the ultimate cause, i.e. the nameless Wetiko-virus. Should we not pacify a mass murderer if we can save many lives just because he is exchangeable? We know that evil does not disappear by arresting someone but immediate action to prevent massmurder is a moral duty nonetheless…

    The process of awakening is layered and Desmet is – as opposed to Superclass whistleblowers, insiders, officers, doctors, etc – still stockholmsyndromistic and ignorant in regard to historical conspiracy realities. Something I noticed about him from the get-go…

    Accordingly he is still – however horrific the situation already is from the perspective of nameless mass formation – blissfully unaware of Directed History and key events.

    Ponerology is a critique of Hannah Arendt as it points out that psychopathy is the problem, but complements it, but goes deeper in regard to the theory of origin of totalitarianism:

    ‘It looks like James Lindsay has read Andrew Lobaczewski’s Political Ponerology. By our estimate, he’s one of the first prominent academics to do so, and to write anything substantial about it (though without citing it, unfortunately):

    ‘Pseudo-realities, being false and unreal, will always generate tragedy and evil on a scale that is at least proportional to the reach of their grip on power — which is their chief interest — whether social, cultural, economic, political, or (particularly) a combination of several or all of these.

    [SNIP – Please keep comments to 500 words or less. Longer comments can be split into multiple posts. -JC]

    • Can you delete this comment? It is posted below already

    • Check out the work of Edward Bernays. He was a genius manipulator via marketing. But proving that they have a bunker(s) where people are plotting and scheming is hard to prove, probably impossible actually.

      But there are “think tanks” that try to shift how people think, lots of money in that.

  8. Awesome interview.

    I just sent this to my friends.

    Many of you have listened to Mattias Desmet speak before. He is getting better in expressing his views. This hour long video digs down deep into how the Totalitarian State uses Mass Formation to control the masses. It’s spicy all the way to the end.

  9. The most interesting, if depressing, observation Desmet made towards the end, was that this is not a “plot” created by the “elite”, but that it is we, the mass, who create the elite – that unless we change our mindset (just go along with this or that technological fix, to make us safer, more comfortable, whatever), everything will just carry on as before. That the world we live in is really our projection, and until some / most of us change the way we think and feel, what’s out there will just carry on as before.

    • Yes, it really does boil down to changing yourself and becoming a true and virtuous person. If everyone works on themselves and towards becoming that best version of themselves then the facade of the reality we live in will crumble by itself. Its the ‘how do we get everyone to become the best version of ourselves’ which is the tough one.

    • It is depressing from a personal, individualistic point of view. If you feel yourself as an individual with something to lose, then it’s depressing and overwhelming. But, if we realize that this human experience is part of a greater phenomenon of life and consciousness, then we realize that life will go in many forms and ways after we, the individual, die.

    • I agree with the observation about leadership being a natural phenomenon. Some people are more skilled leaders and that is an innate quality that can be developed, but mostly innate in my opinion. My grandma was that way, she just took the reins and took charge and was a manager for most of her career. She wasn’t a psychopath so didn’t get very far, lol.

      It’s really an interesting line of thought. JC had a pod cast on spontaneous order, how leadership can arise in a less top down fashion that has to do with skill and ability rather than ones net worth or blood line (which is what we have now).

      In a medical situation, I could lead if there was no one more skilled and knowledgeable and should lead in that setting. On the other hand in most other situations, would feel more comfortable being a thoughtful follower who checks on what the leader is doing. Good leaders aren’t dictators.

  10. Ahhhh James! Too good to be real, I love this interview. Great learning experience for all of us. In depth and clear, as always, I learned a full semester here with this interview of Mattias Desmet. You are at the top of your teaching career right now my friend. The logic/illogic way of the universe around us is on full display toward the end. This interview is unforgettable. Thank you for your efforts, sooo good. Buz

    • [SNIP – no urls without titles or explanations in the comments, please. Please repost the link with a title and an explanation of why people should be clicking on it. -JC]

      • Esta Epoca es una Decada Oscura , donde la secularizacion e identificacion con el cuerpo ha llevado al Humano a olvidarse de si mismo.
        Los seres humanos no están vivos en la tierra simplemente para ser usados en la maquina del muy esperado progreso hacia la utopia , simplemente para cantar su ” cancion del grillo ” , hacer un bebe o dos, y luego caer muertos. No. tambien existe el impulso basado en el conocimiento de que este nacimiento humano es una condicion mortal. es el impulso de encontrar lo que es superior, y de ser incluido en eso.
        Cada ser vivo tiene el instinto de la vida infinita. ese instinto, ese impulso, tiene que ser permitido, cultivado, incluso educado.
        si la Cultura Humana llega a ser tal que hace que la existencia Humana sea enteramente profana o secular , nisiguiera permitiendo que las mentes alcancen algo mas alla que levantarse cada manana y acostarse cada noche, es una situacion terrible . pero esa situacion no es desconocida para los seres humanos, y no es unica de esta epoca oscura . en terminos generales la intelegencia humana se aplica principalmente a los asuntos corporeos hasta el punto de ignorar el dominio de lo sagrado.
        si la Realidad es la paradoja no Dual sugerida incluso por la fisica del siglo veinte, entonces, donde esta la cultura humana sagrada de la existencia verdaderamente participativa que corresponde a tal universo ?
        no se ha creado ninguna cultura de ese tipo
        Mas bien la presupcion general parece suponer que todo el mundo es un simple trabajador de algun tipo , dedicado al Progreso hacia alguna utopia social imaginada mientras tanto la mente duerme dominada por Ideas , hasta que se cierra lo suficiente como para no ver mas alla.

        el Link es la Referencia hacia el Libro ” Prior Unity- The Basis for A New Human Civilization”
        by the World-Friend
        Adi Da

  11. 2nd attempt and shorter.

    Very Good interview. I knew it was only a matter of time before he ended up at Corbett.

    The only thing Desmet’s realization of Mass Formation doesn’t take into account, is that the power elites are instigating mass formation deliberately via very refined social sciences PSYOPS for decades.. in order to DIRECT history. His lack of historical consciousness in regard to conspiracy realities constitutes an illiteracy of who, where, when and why, etc.

    Officially declassified documents immediately invalidates Desmet’s assumption of ‘coincidence theory’ (“it’s not a malevolent elite”) whereas the evidence for Directed History is an abundant almost trivial fact.

    Directed History: The idea that key events in modern history—wars, revolutions, transformations, concentrations of wealth and power, for at least the past 250 years but possibly longer—have not been random or the mere product of economic forces but were guided: directed. History has been taken in a specific direction by a powerful superelite, especially secret societies, Rothschilds and Rockefellers, etc.).

    Thus, he – his great work notwithstanding – not conscious of the names of the most dangerous individual master nodes of the ruling pathocracy, i.e. the power elites who are invoking mass formation. His frame of theory describes the systemic dynamics causing evil, the evil in and between nameless nodes which constitute the mass formation.

    I myself adhereto the point that it’s futile to cut of one head of a Medusa, but it would be a moral logical fallacy if one did not remove evil given the opportunity fx. – not arresting Kissinger or Gates fx. – on the grounds that evil is an exchangeable psychological shadow-virus in each of us. The profound invisible truth of a Wetiko-like psycho-shadow-virus in-all-of-us (like Jung poínted out) on the other hand should not be seen as a moral carte blanche for misapplied mindful bystanding as great deeds have saved many lives by immediate action, whether lacking in uprooting the ultimate cause, i.e. the nameless Wetiko-virus. Should we not pacify a mass murderer if we can save many lives just because he is exchangeable? Knowing that evil does not disappear by arresting Kissinger does not detract immediate action to prevent massmurder fx. as a moral imperative nonetheless…

    The process of awakening is layered and Desmet is – as opposed to Superclass whistleblowers, insiders, officers, doctors, etc – still stockholmsyndromistic and ignorant in regard to historical conspiracy realities. Something I noticed about him from the get-go…

    Accordingly he is still – however horrific the situation already is from the perspective of nameless mass formation – blissfully unaware of Directed History and key events.

    • ChaosNavigator

      You are correct…. I think that he is very loose in how he describes least from what he says here. Not read his stuff.

      Hitler and Stalins reigns require zero special psychological events UNLESS the speaker is trying to obscure historical truth.

      The Germans did not “go crazy” and elect Hitler…there ar perfectly normal and understandable POLITICAL reasons they chose to support him.
      The people with power don’t want us to think to much on those reasons….. because those reasons affect us to this day.

      Stalin did not do anything grossly different then the Bolsheviks before ….Lenin and Trotsky had already murdered tonnes of people. But the Trotskyite (jewish faction Bolshevik) NeoCons don’t want us to think on that either…while the lefties want to blame the man rather then the system they desire

      You hear the same psychobabble about Trump Voters….or TBH Sanders fans because they don’t want us thinking what grievances would make such people popular

      Its psychobabble to trick us.

      • @Duck Trump is a controlled opposition clown (in spite of all the Qanus BS constant cognitive infiltration circus) He is the best president Zionists ever had, it’s universally known in Israel – and biographical traces to Roy Cohn, the NY Brighon Beach mafyia, Meyer Lansky, Tibor Rosenbaum, William Mellon Hitchcock, David Rockefeller, Rothschild agent Wilbur Ross and Baron Edmond de Rothschild, etc. ad infinitum, is proof par excellence. Soros is controlled by the same entities as Trump even though it’s deliberately cloaked. This video is using clips of E.G. Griffin and Corbett to expose Trump (although they don’t mention zionism in the video so the title is misleading) :

        • Chaos Navigator
          I agree Trump is controlled opposition in t he sense that those controlling him are also not our friends….. but the exact same is probably true of Hitler. That said…. history is not directed by one elite ubut many fighting each other for power.

          The rise of someone like Trump was pred8…chris lasch wrote a book ‘revolt of the elites’ that said the common folks were going to demand a leader who looked (or at least pretended to look) to them rather then the upper middle class “data movingb” classes that look down on blue collars.
 the audio book

          The point I was making is that there are normal political reasons for people to choose Hitler over either mostly Jewish Bolsheviks trying to overthrow the government and install a helpline the Hungarian Soviet (see peter Ross Range ‘the year that made hitler’ or in fiction “time and time again ‘ by Ben Elton) or the banker thefts…. the stab in the back story is understandable as the most jewish left wing pulling the plug on ww1 German War effort….and like in post Soviet Russia jews had more access to foreign cash to buy up stuff….no psycobabble needed for anti Semitic feelings to rise

          The psychology explanation of events is sometimes useful but mostly it’s to make things like hitler Mao Stalin nixonand Trump look mysterious rather then understandable and relatable to modern life.

      • @Duck

        I don’t think Desmet’s theory about totalitarianism is psychobabble, but context is everything. It might be that Desmet is interpreting the German people during WW2 from a lamestream historical perspective whereas the so-called mass formation at the time could be a case of directed history directed against Germany (more than from within) in order to destroy Germany’s economic and technological boom, not least the sudden independence from international central banks… and to create the state of Israel.

      • Correlating partially with Corbetts WW1 documentary btw: Rudolf Steiner alleged that the political development of the world was controlled by small, secret circles in England capable of manipulating the instincts, thoughts, and feelings of the politicians, and of the general public as well. After the first world war had broken out, he began to say a great deal about these mysterious power centers of the West. In his opinion, these occultists were responsible for the outbreak of the war by lulling the European politicians to sleep and at the same time creating confusion among the European peoples by whipping up their nationalistic, hostile instincts. For this reason, he frequently reminded his audiences that “present-day events” forced him to reveal information about these lodges and their activities. In 1915 and 1916 he showed a map, and he insisted that he was able to prove that this very map, which showed the frontiers of Europe almost exactly as they were drawn after the armistice in 1918, had existed in England in the 1890’s….Shortly after the Communist revolution in Russia. Steiner alleged that the secret lodges of the West had turned Russia into a theater for their social experiments [Sutton and Lina correlations, et al], and it looks as if the political development in the East was a very important factor as to why Steiner felt compelled to speak about these lodges and their activities. Rudolf Steiner died in 1925, i.e. before the Nazis came to power in Germany. It is however tempting to speculate whether German national socialism was some kind of social experiment as well, staged by the secret lodges of the West. It is clear from several of Steiner’s statements that he viewed Germany as especially challenged and threatened by the powers that be. When he says below that “The real being of the German people cannot perish,” this illustrates that Germany was completely on the defensive and in the claws of hidden manipulators
        – The Secret Lodges of the West

        • Chaos Navigator

          On the secret schools directing the world I DO think there is a spiritual angle but the people doing it often just think it’s about money and power. Also I think there is lots of fighting amongst themselves (we’d be in the pod by now were it no so…)

          There js tons of support cor behind the scenes stringpulling
          Dr Jones “jewish revolutionary spirit” goes into how the British exported freemasonry to destabilize pre revolutionary France…. Dr Jones book pulls a lot of other people’s work into one place…… also Dr Spence opened my eyes to that with his bio of Crowley “secret agent 666”

      • Hitler was very favorably disposed toward cooperation with the Zionists (Transfer Agreement) and they with him. Weird stuff; the B’nai B’rith Lodge, pertaining to the centre of Freemasonry; the Nazi leadership took no legal action against B’nai B’rith, which was allowed to continue its activities. B’nai B’rith had 12 000 members in 80 lodges in Germany, three of them in Berlin. B’nai B’rith were the ONLY freemasons allowed by Hitler to remain active and open during the Nazi regime after 1933 until 1939. Another thing: According to a letter written by Dr. Heinrich Bruning, Chancellor of Germany before Hitler, to Winston Churchill in 1949: “I did not and do not even today, for understandable reasons, wish to reveal that from October 1928 the two largest regular contributors to the Nazi Party were the general managers of two of the largest Berlin banks, both of Jewish faith, and one of them the leader of Zionism in Germany” (whether Hitler himself knew all of these bizarre anomalies is a good question). I could go on but only brief posts are allowed….

        I am an anti-statist but many things during WW2 are gigantic lies (and world history in general), and I am not an ‘anti-semite’, neither a “nazi” for pointing out old well-known stuff….

    • ChaosNavigator

      Incredible post, I was going to comment along similar lines but you articulated these criticisms far more eruditely than I am able. So props to you.

      Really powerful comment regarding pacifying a mass murderer. I think speculation on whether neutralizing the intellectual power elite will solve the root problems of human interaction and ideology is moot. We haven’t neutralized these threats so we can’t surmise with any certainty what impact it will have. When the intellectual fountainhead of mass formation is removed I suspect the mob, like a spinning dreidel will eventually collapse under the weight of it’s own internal contradictions and destroy itself without the hand to keep spinning. I’d much rather contend with a flailing animal in it’s death throws than the crouching tiger hidden in the forest.

      It’s a shame that intellectuals like Desmet have to maintain this ideological denial of the realities of power and conspiracy. Ridicule such speculation to dimly lit smoke filled rooms and creating an itemized list of why people might think an event like the Covid 19 pandemic could be orchestrated then dismissing it in the next breath. Because these are just nebulous things motivating the zeitgeist of history, with no guiding intelligence behind it. Just random happenstance that a disconnected nexus of power capitalize through coincidence and all still arrive at the all the same conclusions.

      • Maybe he has a hard time understanding the mind of psychopaths, the kind that have substantial power and influence. The kind that do sit around in a smokey room and plot destruction on a global level.

        Though it is true everyone has a bit of evil in them, does not make them a psychopath. A murderer is different than someone who commits adultery for example. People who plot the destruction of billions of people are worse than someone who kills a single person in a fit of rage, in my opinion. There are degrees of evil and some people do deserve to be punished for the harm they have caused.

        • I am not familiar with the content. But I am curious now to examine the contents. The bible has some very disturbing content too however.

          • Bible stories may be disturbing but the Talmud basically is the long discussion of the discussion of the discussion of jewish teachers and is literal hate speech…as in it discusses how evil non jews are, whenits OK to rape or defraud them, how much the goy deserve destruction… it’s kinda a recipe for making jews hate non jews.

            It is a book so evil that translation was forbidden on pain of death least we hear what they actually believe….when people read it they often burned it and turned against jews.

            Good luck luck going thru it…. it’s like some endless internet threads thru the ages

          • Okay so I looked on Amazon, and the complete Talmud is over 2K USD. I’m not going to buy one. I’ll try to find an online version to see what people are talking about.

            Do you have any direct quotes to rape and defrauding people? That’s pretty extreme. But it wouldn’t shock me, based on reading some of the OT. I just wonder why people would still be following something like that.

            I know that there are some crazy extremists who go and settle in Palestine and are very violent. It’s revolting to think they have the right to behave that way. There are also extremist Muslims too. Maybe it’s something weird that came out of the Abrahamic triad, that harsh desert life made people nuts. This is why I can’t really take these types of religions seriously, too many contradictions and too many examples of vile human behavior.

          • Thanks for the link FC. Some of the content is indeed revolting and shocking.

          • Duck,

            Interesting video. It was sort of funny, the money lending part, but most of it pretty sad to see how racism or tribalism infects people. The dehumanization of others isn’t funny when you see the hurt it can cause.

          • Cu.h.j
            this is a longish video…


            The old guy at the end comes across a lot smarter…. you should start with his reasonable explanation for jews not liking goy at

            ACtually the whole things worth a listen… esp the scary looking dude from 14:40

            31:20 Souls of jews are from pigs/ explanation LISTEN to 32:20 or so


            26:00 Pagans are not human
            31:20 Souls of jews


          • Interesting videos Duck. I think they are educational and also helpful for people to start to talk to one another about controversial topics, perhaps work together to create something better.

            On the topic of souls, the notion of spiritual superiority, I believe is an error. I mean to say that a persons race or tribe or whatever identity they were born into or adopted does not mean they have a superior soul.

            I think that idea is absurd and needs to be challenged. Goodness can come from the soul, but mostly through positive actions in the world. If people are doing cruel things, they probably started out with a crappy soul and this has nothing to do with their identity, gender, race, tribe, whatever.

      • Hey Fact Checker,

        Thank you for replying, I always appreciate your insights.

        I was passively listening while working and I thought he referenced the Talmud but I wasn’t in a position to confirm so thank you for lending clarity. Given the gravity of despotism and misanthropy within those texts, it’s perplexing that one would even bother positively quoting from let alone have such knowledge if one wasn’t part of the tribe. So these revelations are quite disturbing, it seems the misdirection at the end of the conversation is quite deliberate.

        Here’s an itemized list of why covid 19 was an apparent operation and here’s why you can’t trust your lying eyes or build anything substantial from the preponderance of evidence. We must trust the world is inherently irrational and therefore the course of history is seemingly full of coincidence. Distraction and misdirection indeed.

        I mean, to revere Chomsky at this point, who’s shown his ghoulish authoritarian hand in advocating an apartheid medical tyranny where the “unvaccinated” are sequestered from every aspect of society. A prime example of a Communist alchemical interloper polluting the fountain of anarchism. This guy’s appearance has degenerated so efficiently to that of an absolute troll. Truly gives credence to the old troll under the bridge fables, pay the toll to cross. There is so much encoded in ancestral wisdom that attempted warning of his “people”.

        • Just because he mentioned the Talmud doesn’t mean he’s Jewish. I have heard random speakers reference the Talmud before, probably because they have never looked in it or maybe they had read something other than the Babylonian version (the shocking and disturbing version). Maybe he read the version that has been re-vised to exclude the bigoted and misogynistic content, in addition to other content that was jaw dropping.

          I have never looked at it before yesterday, but assumed it was something similar to the Bible, or other Abrahamic book like the Koran.

          I guess the lesson could be to check books before mentioning it, especially if there is controversial material in it.

          Having said that, I find it interesting that he quoted from it, and if FC’s analysis is correct, that’s some very sharp discernment.

          • And Fact checker could be right. That is also possible. Many of the psychopathic elites plotting could be Talmud following Jews. That basic belief in spiritual superiority can create a belief that other people don’t matter and that should be looked at without focusing hate at other Jews/people who have nothing to do with these evil campaigns.

            But calling it out is very appropriate and is not the same as bigotry, IMO.

          • I’ll have to re-watch it. You could be right. If he is doing what you think he’s doing, that is disturbing. Good to catch potential cognitive infiltration, look at things from a critical lens.

            If he sited it as a source of spiritual authority, you are correct.

          • cuhj

            You have to understand what the Talmud is, it’s reem upon reem of obsessive Rabbinical legalism and commentary on the Torah. An expanded framework of the Jewish worldview. Very dense reading and like you, a vast majority of people don’t know it even exists unless they’re doing some form of research involving exposure of intergenerational organized Jewish crime. The Talmud has historically been closely guarded and forbidden to show gentiles under various penalties (including death, I believe).

            Recently there was a kerfuffle involving the Louis IX statue in Missouri, St. Louis namesake. Target of BLM and Antifa type statue iconoclasm. If you look into Rabbinical commentary on the matter, you’ll find it was a target due to Louis the IX’s Talmud burning of the 1200’s.

            I think it’s important to keep this as a frame of reference and understand that Jews meticulously document and foster generational enmity for each and every transgression against them as a people to the end of time. That’s not hyperbole, the Roman Jewish wars of the first century are still colloquially cited. The celebrated holiday of Purim is in reference to one of the first crypto Jews, Esther. (Joseph in Egypt being the first archetype and also the first insurance scam to enslave an entire people.)
            Groomed by her uncle Mordecai to marry the Persian king. Turned the tables on the hated enemy of the Jewish people, Haman, slaughtering 75,000 Persians allegedly plotting against them. Likewise Hannukah, commemorates the conflict with the Maccabees.

            • *Maccabean conflict with the Seluecids*

        • Just one question. Why does putting down someone that makes sense work for you? Is it a far left thing?

    • Agree with arresting the people who have harmed millions, perhaps billions of people. There should be consequences for them. I don’t think psychopathic murderers should be allowed to go on business as usual. That’s absurd. It’s natural to hold people accountable for their actions. In fact it is moral to do so.

  12. Psychopathy and the Origins of Totalitarianism goes deeper in regard to the theory of origin of totalitarianism as it points out that psychopathy is the cause (and as such is also partially a critique of Hannah Arendt’s work on the origins of totalitarianism).

    ‘It looks like James Lindsay has read Andrew Lobaczewski’s Political Ponerology. By our estimate, he’s one of the first prominent academics to do so, and to write anything substantial about it (though without citing it, unfortunately):

    ‘Pseudo-realities, being false and unreal, will always generate tragedy and evil on a scale that is at least proportional to the reach of their grip on power — which is their chief interest — whether social, cultural, economic, political, or (particularly) a combination of several or all of these. So important to the development and tragedies of societies are these pseudo-realities when they arise and take root that it is worth outlining their basic properties and structure so that they can be identified and properly resisted before they result in sociopolitical calamities — up to and including war, genocide, and even civilizational collapse, all of which can take many millions of lives and can ruin many millions more in the vain pursuit of a fiction whose believers are, or are made, sufficiently intolerant.’

    Just as Desmet but to a lesser extent, even Political Ponerology is lacking in regard to knowledge of the concrete manifestations of psychopathy in an organized cluster: Pathocracy. Pathocracy is the (concrete) Cause (and Effect) of Evil.
    Pathocracy in its current concrete external forms would be Council of Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Bohemian Grove, etc. – and Blackrock / Rothschilds and Rockefellers being the most visible players today at the apex of the pyramid…for example

    Historical events and ideologies – examples: The Corona Operation, The Big Lie, False Flag Terrorism, NLP Abuse, Cambridge Analytica, Palantir, MK Ultra, Operation Mockingbird, Trauma Psychology, and especially The House of Rothschild and transhumanism, to name a few….

    • Also; evil is not equally distributed among us – some people are completely incapable of empathy, accordingly; only a few percent are psychopaths, most dangerous psychopaths being among the 0.1% very old multi-generational secret societies and dynasties. These psychopaths are very different from most of us which is why we are horrified by their modus operandi (and good-hearted people are hypnotized into evil agents by them unknowingly (vaccines fx.)

      Many people are already at a very different ethical level, which is why we feel completely alienated from them, and for the very same reason our capacity to do evil is not the same as theirs at all, far from it (such claim would also be a ridiculous monolithic absolutism and empirical observations proves it).

      Dr. ‘[Rudolf] Steiner: [some] human beings.. are also quite different from human beings in regard to everything spiritual…because they have become something that is not human’
      – Faculty Meetings With Rudolf Steiner Vol. 2

      ‘Again and again, when confronted by the many serious problems with which humanity has been struggling since the First World War and is still facing, the almost despairing question is often asked, even in anthroposophical circles: ‘What can I do? What can the individual do about the machinations of these secret groups, if indeed they exist? It’s all too much for individuals.’ Rudolf Steiner’s answer in these lectures is bold and clear:

      The only defence against these things is knowing about them. If you know about them, you are protected … But you must not be idle about acquiring real knowledge of these things.”
      – ‘Secret Brotherhoods, Rudolf Steiner 1917

      As I once wrote to my spritual friends: Meditation and mindfulness will not make primary psychpathy, Bilderberg, CFR, TLC, Skull and Bones, False flags, vanish into thin air. This would imply that meditators, morphic resonance, or directed positive intention could somehow transform elite psychopaths in power into noble persons, nullifying their free will in the process, exalting their state to a sudden empathic level – which is wishful irrational thinking. Not going to happen with primary psychopaths (neurologically hardwired).

      And many people are not even aware of the depths and destructive influence of the ‘Darth Vader-empire’ in the first place! We can only remove such shadow organizational entities if sufficient numbers are becoming aware of their destructive influence in the first place – transformation, and transcendence of negative emotions and exclusive identification with thought in the individual is necessary but it cannot remove these entities – analysis and subsequent skillful action is needed here. Otherwise we would have to wait for a magical global morphic resonance to fly…not viable….

    • Wetiko = There is a contagious psychospiritual disease of the soul, a parasite of the mind, that is currently being acted out en masse on the world stage via a collective psychosis of titanic proportions. This mind-virus — which Native Americans have called “wetiko”— covertly operates through the unconscious blind spots in the human psyche, rendering people oblivious to their own madness and compelling them to act against their own best interests. [Dispelling Wetiko Breaking The Curse of Evil,Paul Levy, Foreword by Catherine Austin Fitts ]

      ‘Deep politics, Bilderberg, CFR, TLC, Skull and Bones, False flags, etc. would then be the external manifestations of internal Wetiko, the shadow gone haywire in the extreme, but even if these entities ultimately are the external manifestations of internal Wetiko, and even though the subjective hatred against the above-mentioned groups constitute a Wetiko in itself, the unawareness of these stealthy shadow groups is also a part of a Cognitive Blindspot, a sort of conitive Wetiko in itself – namely a denial/ignorance/inability to throw light (consciousness, knowledge) on these external stealth-manifestations of darkness (unconsciousness, ignorance), very likely because of cognitive dissonance, disbelief, etc. But you can’t disable a silent stealth-virus by claiming it has no influence!

      Also; It could be argued that it’s a subordinate point whether there is shadow projection involved in the exposure of Big Pharma fx. if the enormous crimes committed by the pharmaceutical cartels came out to light for all to see through such activist efforts (which is happening big time through the internet reformation).

      Should one refrain from pointing out crimes against humanity as long as one’s own shadow and emotional reactivity are involved in the assessments when pointing out treason against humanity? I can’t protest against mandatory vaccines if I am emotional, thus being disqualified to protect my kids? Surely that can’t be the case as it would be absurd in the extreme.’

      • @Artemis

        Sure, great priceless value, but not my point here…

    • Here I explain hypnosis and psychopaths.

      In reply to your posts,
      To me, it seems that you treat different groups up as one group.
      And you get a bit lost in each individual action or group.

      From Desmet we can learn that

      these groups are also in a “mass formation”. But in a negative sense.

      And we may improve as humanity if we can break both “mass formations”
      That of the “common people’ and that of the “elite”.

      Most have gone crazy, and I think that some elite are being
      influenced and hypnotized by people that have far worse goals in mind.
      A bit like Epstein was influencing politicians,
      and drugs are influencing other politicians.

      Let’s look again how the first world war started.
      Most people in the secret group thought that they worked to prevent a war.
      While a few were actually creating the start of the war.

      I think that this structure of betrayal is being used again and again.

  13. Thank you James for initiating this interview. This interview is introducing some very fundamental assumptions about the nature of man, the nature of our existence, it challenges my assumptions about the nature of life. This is the interesting point here. I come from a personal history of reason in my parents and grandparents. I personally have felt a significant connection to the spiritiual dimension that affects my primary perspective on life. We individually seem to live in a personal narrative that affects our perspective. I see a bomb exploding my personal assumptions based on my experience. My wife passed away four years ago, and is challenging so many fundamental assumptions. My foundation has been shaken, but I also feel that I also do not live in fear, but sense a guiding hand, and offer gratitude and confidence that a force is guiding me in my future. I think a unity is coming in the integration of material and spiritual existence on earth.

  14. You mention the Milgram experiment. I first read about that in the book “Most people are good” by Rutger Bregman, where the author analyzes the study. I thought it was interesting, I’ll quote a part here:

    But how did Milgram get his test subjects to press the button?

    Alex Haslam and Steve Reicher, the psychologists behind the BBC Prison Experiment (see previous chapter), have come up with a fascinating explanation. According to their theory, the participants did not submit to the man in the grey dust coat, but decided to join him. And why? Because they trusted him.

    Haslam and Reicher point out that most subjects entered the lab in a helpful mood. They were eager to help Mr. Williams with his research. This would explain why the rate dropped when Milgram conducted his experiment in an ordinary office building, rather than at the prestigious Yale University. It explains why the ‘nudges’ that appealed to scientific goals (e.g., ‘The experiment requires you to continue’) were the most effective. And it explains why the participants did not behave like mindless robots, but were instead torn apart by doubt.

    On the one hand, the teachers identified with the man in the grey dustcoat who kept repeating that it was all in the interests of science. On the other hand, the suffering of the pupil in the other room gnawed at him. I can’t take this anymore’ and ‘I quit’ were shouted at every turn by the participants, even when they continued.

    One of the participants said afterwards that he had done it for his six-year-old daughter. She had cerebral palsy and the man hoped that science would one day come up with a solution. When Milgram told his subjects afterwards that their discomfort was benefiting science, many reacted with relief. ‘I am glad to have helped,’ was a typical response. Continue your experiments as long as something good can come of them. Psychologist Don Mixon repeated Milgram’s study in the 1970s and came to the same conclusion. People are willing to go to great lengths and suffer greatly to do good,’ he said years later. The test subjects got caught up in their attempt to be good…’

    In other words, if you pull on people hard enough, if you work and mould them, seduce and manipulate them, then many of us are capable of evil. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. But evil does not lie on the surface; it has to be pumped up with great effort. And more importantly, it must invariably disguise itself as good.

    Translated with (free version)

    Quote from part 2 “After Auschwitz” chapter 8 “STANLEY MILGRAM AND THE SHOCK MACHINE”
    Translated from Dutch under the strange title “Humankind: A Hopeful History” (
    Author Rutger Bregman is known for his remarks at the WEF conference in Davos, where he spoke about billionaires not paying tax:

  15. WOW
    that was very educational. Thank you James and Mattias Desmet for breaking it down in layman’s language for us laymen to understand. I was sad it ended so quickly even though it was quite long. I wanted more knowledge, feed my brain…lol … bye my friends until we meet again.

  16. People want a crusade to stand behind no matter the cost or outcome. Loneliness is a scam for the weak. “Be yourself, by yourself, stay away from me” -Pantera

  17. This was just what I needed for my day off. So much truth. I loved what he said about the importance of continuing to speak out. Go silent and the killing begins. Good lessons. I just wrote about the topic of loneliness, btw, and then I heard this and then I heard a podcast on NPR about loneliness. I’m glad to hear people talking about it. Keep up the great work!

    • pkadams says:
      “I loved what he said about the importance of continuing to speak out.”

      I agree with highlights!

  18. Great interview. Shall add a bit:

    Towards hypnosis

    We are easy to fall in a “Mass Formation”, when we are already in
    a lighter form of trance or hypnosis.
    Humans like to be in a trance to escape from life or loneliness.
    This is trance can be found in television or religion.
    Like: “Comfortably Numb”
    And drugs/alcohol can even give a deeper escape as they disable part of our minds.
    The drugs can allow us to be more violent and create brain disabilities.
    With sex one can also escape into lust and instinct.

    Do the ones in power escape into lust, power and greed?

    The hypnosis is the programming of our adaptive-mind
    via the instinct-mind
    usually outside the awareness of the active-mind.

    The instinct-mind is activated via fear, basic needs (like food),
    social herd-like contact, sexuality.
    During this activation it becomes more dominant and can be programmed.
    Usually we program this ourselves with our awareness.
    Like you can tell yourself to calm down when you get in a difficult situation.

    With psychological problems, this bridge is broken often in different ways.
    Sects and the military also have tricks to break the self-aware mind.
    Also close relationships are able to get past this aware mind,
    which we often perceive in a positive way.

    • Programming the mind

      During distractions or confusion or fear, the instinct-mind can be
      influenced from the outside. If the instinct sees this influence
      as beneficial it will accept it.
      And with many simple instructions the instinct-mind can build a program.

      When a simple program is complete, the instinct-mind can be commanded
      without the active mind.
      Like a mother who tells you: “Go wash the dishes”.
      With an added trance this programming becomes invisible for the
      active mind (because it is in a trance).
      This trance can be started with music or a starting signal.
      Like a glance of your father to really do the dishes.

      And while you are doing the dishes,
      your mother can ask you about your homework without
      your active mind resisting.
      So opening to one command, opened you to another command.

      Negative programming

      While I listed them in a positive way.
      These same tactics are also available to a sociopath partner,
      who abuses you and gaslights you.

      The companies are using these tactics to
      get you to buy their products and/or to make choices that are
      not beneficial to you.

      The government is using these tactics to
      make you to perform actions that are not beneficial to you,
      and are often not beneficial to most people.

      • The Social and Psychological Roots of Machiavellian Thinking and Sophistic Thought

        In fact, perhaps the most accurate and useful definition of humans is that of ‘the self-deceiving mammal’. For deception, duplicity, sophistry, delusion and hypocrisy are the foundational products of human nature in its ‘natural’, primal and untutored state; but it is not instinctive and subjected to fate.

        But, rather than reducing these negative tendencies, most ‘schooling’ and socio-cultural influences redirect them, rendering them more sophisticated, more artful, more obscure and more inclined to deception and illusion.

        “One of the most pathetic aspects of human history is that every civilization expresses itself most pretentiously, compounds its partial and universal values most convincingly, and claims immortality for its finite existence at the very moment when the decay which leads to death has already begun.” —– Niebuhr Reinhold

        To exacerbate this problem, not only are humans socially constructed to be self-deceptive, they are, in their primal state, unsurprisingly socio-centric as well. Every culture and society sees itself as special and as justified in all of its basic beliefs and practices — in all its values and taboos. The arbitrary nature of its folkways is known to its anthropologists (if it has any) but not to its overwhelming majority. Take the notion of ‘American Exceptionalism’ as one example.

        When we look closely at human decisions and human behaviors, we can easily see that what counts in contemporary human life is not who is right, but who is winning; those who possess power in the form of wealth, property, and weaponry are those who decide what truths will be trumpeted around the world and what truths will be ridiculed, silenced, or suppressed.

    • Psychopaths

      Note: I use a lot of generalization here. Each person is different!

      Psychopaths are people that have lost connection with their soul in a way.
      Psychopaths are not necessarily bad or evil.
      Most see other humans as tools.
      And some see humans as vermin.
      But they often see similar psychopaths as friends.

      Still they are humans so how does that work?
      Most humans are influenced by their soul, which gives them the will
      to live and experience life. It is like being a child and wondering
      about the magic of the world around you.

      For a psychopath this connection has been broken.
      This can even be an event in this life., but because it is related
      to the soul there can be certain spiritual reasons.
      (Note: This is not about religion)

      Every human mind is influenced from the outside continuously.
      But with a connection you can stay yourself.
      And with a good connection you can even enjoy your life.

      But without a connection to your soul, you can not
      separate these influences from yourself.
      So your thoughts become you.
      “I think so I am”
      Or the outside influence becomes you,
      and can even make you feel that you are a god over humans.

      And your feelings are mainly the feelings that your instinct-mind bring you.
      So you fall easily into lust, sexuality, greed, power, drugs, etc.
      Because that is what you feel life is about.
      And the feelings related to your inner traumas.

      But no loving feelings about other people.
      Nor a greater feeling about what life is about.
      No ethical values.

      But if psychopath see people happy and enjoying life
      or relationships in a way that they can not,
      they see these people as wrong or even bad.

      And depending on their trauma-program,
      they will feel and react in a certain way.

      • zyxzevn,

        But without a connection to your soul, you can not
        separate these influences from yourself.
        So your thoughts become you.
        “I think so I am”
        Or the outside influence becomes you,
        and can even make you feel that you are a god over humans.

        Very well said. I agree. We become attached to our thoughts, and they become us, and this causes many problems.

      • Trickle Down Economics & The Rise Of The New Sociopathic Class

        Feb 20, 2014: 9:01 pm

        Sociopath — A person with antisocial personality disorder. Probably the most widely recognized personality disorder. A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means. (

        Trickle Down

        The idea behind trickle-down economics was that the wealthy were job creators, and that by reducing taxes on the affluent, more jobs would be created, resulting in prosperity for all. Trickle-down economics was christened with an official name, supply side economics, and sold to the American people with a slogan; a rising tide lifts all boats. However, you can’t put lipstick on a pig: the system is called capitalism and it is killing people and the environment.

        We now know trickle-down economics was a lie, a fraudulent scheme to redistribute money from the many to a few, and a theft of the nation’s wealth. Rather than a rising tide, forty plus years of trickle-down economics has brought us the loss of tens of millions of jobs through outsourcing, the devastation of entire cities, the financial collapse of 2008 and an ever widening income disparity and inequality between the so called job creators and the other 99% of the population.

  19. Thank you James for an excellent interview. So the only way out of this mass hysteria is to get people to realize that 90% or more of the reality we live in is irrational and is not understandable. In other words, “Life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved.” (This is one of my family’s mottos handed down for generations.)
    Well, duh. Does it take a lot of words in a book to say one simple sentence?
    The conceit of man pretending he can understand God is just that; a conceit.

  20. At 11:13 or so Desmet discusses a “mechanistic” view of the universe that society has adopted, which leads to a feeling of loneliness and disconnection.

    (Queued at 11:13)

    I have brought this point up, or similar points, several times in the Corbett comment sections. One of the best philosophers of our time, Alan Watts, explains these ideas in a way that really makes sense to anyone.

    One of his key ideas is about different models of the universe that human beings have adopted over the course of time. One of these models is the Fully Automatic Model of the universe. In this model, the universe is just a fluke. Life (including human beings) is just a bunch of unintelligent mumbo jumbo that has no real significance or meaning. It is a mechanical process. Sigmund Freud’s ideas demonstrated this type of thinking, with his idea of libido, which according to him was essentially an animalistic urge, or blind, unintelligent lust.

    As humans have adopted the Fully Automatic Model, a disconnect to the natural world has formed, which we feel is outside ourselves, including “nature” and other people. This causes people to always be on guard and defensive against others. This makes it easier for people to destroy the “other” in society. They aren’t really people, they are just jews, witches, unvaccinated, etc.

    Alan Watts – The Myth of the Automatic Universe

    Around 45 minutes into the conversation Desmet talks about the ultimate futility of rationality as a means to understand our existence. I concur with this view, and again, Alan Watts deconstructs this idea so beautifully in his lectures and writings.

    • catie,

      That’s awesome to hear. Yes, I love Alan Watts. He has had a profound impact on my life. The Way of Zen is a good book. I read it a couple years ago. Also, The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety is a good read.

      I could also tell Desmet has philosophical side. I thought that was pretty cool.

  21. QUESTIONS FOR CORBETT! #Q4C ———————hi james! Would you please consider doing a summary of what happened during the “health treaty” talks i Geneva? I`ve become so skeptical i don`t really know what to believe. Thanks for all your hard work! The Nerd Viking.

  22. I decided to listen to this again while walking my dog because I feel this is such an important episode. I realized what he is describing is the exact process of brainwashing that cults use, such as Scientology or Mormons or you name it. 100% the same, but used on an individual basis. And it applies to the left vs right divide, denominational factions, any ideological belief system. I used to believe strongly that homeschooling and having many children was what God expected ALL CHRISTIANS to do. I had become part of a groupthink without even realizing it. Thankfully, I didn’t stay there forever. I think those of us in the ‘truth’ cult must beware that we retain our own ability to think for ourselves and be willing to disagree with each other. Fascinating topic!!

    • PK,
      I like your comment.
      I agree…this episode is worth a re-listen.
      I also thought of Scientology when listening to this.

      • Scientology is a spook created thing like most cults intelligence types created orat least used it for their own purposes.

    • Pkadams

      Just out of interest what do you think God wants you to do?

      I am pretty sure that sending kids to state school is something of a bad idea even for non christian types.

      I know teachers who won’t send their kids to those places and pay for private school for their own offspring.

      • First and foremost, I believe that the Bible is the word of God. And the message of the Bible is pretty clear. The 10 commandments is a good summary. Jesus summed it up as Love God, Love others as yourself. It’s amazing how hard it is to follow that simple commandment without the power of the Holy Spirit. Also, humans naturally want to follow rules, so even people who believe in God tend to want to follow the law rather than accept that only by God’s grace are they saved from judgment. Every other religion preaches rules to get in good with God. Jesus said, believe on me and be saved. Hope this answers your questions. Thanks for asking. As for school, there are some great teachers out there, but the system is terrible.

  23. You know FCit always alarms me to agree with you but I must in this case. 😉

  24. This was an interesting, but somewhat convoluted discussion. For instance, Desmet’s assertion that those with more education are more vulnerable to massformation has no documentation or evidence to support it. More importantly David Icke has shown how mass psychosis, mass-childhood fixation, call it what you want, comes into existence and how it actually works. If none other of his books (all are worthwhile in my opinion), read “Perceptions of a Renagade Mind” to learn how all of what Desmet talks about actually works and comes into being. Icke should be credited as primary with these findings; Desmet maybe secondarily as there have been others who have explained and documented this phenomenon (e.g., see research on MKUltra mind control) long before Desmet.

    • Greyhaven

      If education consists of sitting in class getting spoon fed what to think,and for public school that’s the best you can hope for, and college is mostly Marxist professors preying on their students and in both arguing with authority gets you weeded out…… itsnot really rocket science to say what passes cor education makes you dumber and more prone to propaganda.

      Even with nothing else only the most susceptible will ever betting thru college….at least outside of real science and maybe even there.

  25. He did seem to contradict himself a bit and I will have to go back for a second viewing. Perhaps what he was trying to say is that there are some things that can’t be understood rationally, or with logic only. I also interpreted that he was saying that the masses allow the elite to stay in power through compliance, going along because they think it’s easier that way.

    This does not mean that there are not psychopathic “elites” at the top plotting and planning. I think what he was saying is that if the masses removed these particular psychopaths, they would only be replaced. I think this may be true.

    Suspending reason in general though is not the answer to our problems, but I don’t think he was saying that exactly. Suspending reason and logic is what the masses did during Corona and if people had actually looked at the facts should not have allowed this scam to continue. The masses allowed it to continue even people who knew it was false but went along anyway. I am also guilty of doing so, not openly voicing my views to colleagues out of fear of losing my job. My husband voiced his views and did lose his job. I did not want the same thing to happen to me.

    Also, his reference to Chomsky does not necessarily mean he is a shill because not everything Chomsky says is wrong. He mixes truth with lies as misdirection. It’s possible to sift through his work and use some of the truth.

    • Chomsky. I think Chomsky does it deliberately. I’m not sure Desmet is doing so deliberately and maybe I am misinterpreting his points. But I would have to listen to it again to pick out specific examples of contradictions. Do you have any for reference? I don’t think Desmet is on “the payroll” at least not how I’m convinced Chomsky is.

      Letting go of reason entirely should not be done, but I don’t know if he was saying this and I have not read his book.

    • I re-read your comment and you do provide examples. The most compelling is how people went along with absurdity and anti-rationality during Corona. The actual science was informing the public that this was a scam, but people went along with the absurd. So he supports adhering to rationality in that instance, but then says how rationality is a problem. I don’t understand. Will have to re watch. Maybe it’s more nuanced.

      And mechanization is not the same as rationality, right? Perhaps mechanization is irrational because it will destroy us in the end. That’s not logical to continue self destructive behaviors but we do it anyway.

  26. “Nevertheless, it is true that in our time the term “insanity” tends to refer to a private malady. We lack an appropriate term for disorders of the public mind for the fundamental reason that we lack any notion of the “public mind” itself. And the reason for this disappearance is not that the phenomenon itself has ceased to exist but that public consciousness has become so fragmented and atomic that this collective form of consciousness tends to lack self-awareness. But this dissolution is itself the very form of public consciousness that is so important for us to grasp.

    When we use terms like “masochism” we usually take for granted that we are speaking of individual pathology. However, consider that every social system is obviously inseparable from the channeled energies of its participants. In fact, each system is the embodiment of these energies, so organized as to form a larger and more persistent whole. So it is that the failure of our society, the harm it imposes on us, is in unavoidable measure the effort and product of our own lives.

    It is because we act out the forms of personhood required by our society that it is able to accumulate its power to force us into acting against ourselves. So masochism is not an individual occurrence but the basic imposition by which we construct the processes that deconstruct us. Constructing the powers of a destructive society, we deconstruct the ideal possibilities inherent in ourselves.

    Of course, we are not self-consciously aware of this fact, but it occurs as it does regardless of our self-conscious ignorance. We make the social world that is our undoing. We produce the institutions and structures that maintain our very subordination. Our energies, which we define in terms of self-aggrandizement and rational self-interest, are beyond our understanding, the very opposite of what they initially claim. Our vaunted self-interest is self-denial, our cherished self-realization, the destruction of what we hold most dear.”

    The violent disorder of our public minds

    Richard Lichtman:

  27. Compassion is not the first word that comes into my mind remembering how masked people acted against non-masked.

    • Indeed. I am saving my compassion for people who deserve it. But it wasn’t always the mask wearers who were hateful. Some of them just went along because they didn’t want to stand out. I wore masks in grocery stores to be able to get my food without a fuss even tough I knew full well they probably are completely useless. I did refuse to wear them out doors and I would get nasty looks and insults at times.

  28. Very good interview – I saw some previous onlline interviews with Prof. Desmet in the latter part of last year, and like the poster above I had an ‘aha moment’ when I was exposed to the concept of mass formation. Indeed of all the many, many questions that the ‘covid crisis’ has raised in my mind, I think the only one to which I have had a fully satisfactory answer is ‘Why are so many people going along with this blatant nonsense?’

  29. Thank you James for this interview. You are about the most unobtrusive interviewer I know. And yet in between you speak so much to the point. I have heard Mattias Desmet on several occasions now. This was the best. His fibre is so much richer than that of a mere social scientist. He knows our bottom line, humanly speaking, and does not shrink away from it. He reminds me of the times when we had a bunch of subjects in our universities bundled together as ‘humaniora’. What’s become of them?
    Many a time over the past two years and more have I had the feeling that we are in a war over language. We’d never have had a corona crisis without thousands of people willing to corrupt their tongues. In the past poets used to be the keepers of wisdom and the word. The two belong together like a song and its melody.
    I am glad he touches on the subject of language in The Psychology of Totalitarianism. And so I pre-ordered it.
    Again, thank you both for this sad and yet uplifting conversation.

  30. I have watched many interviews with Desmet, most of them
    Were conducted before his book was announced, but this was far and away the most in-depth and interesting interview I’ve seen. Also, I continue to be blown away by what Chelsea Green is doing. I sold books for them when they first started publishing and they had maybe 5 titles to their name. I am planning to order this book.

  31. He keeps using Iran as an example so he can sell his books to Western sheeple who think they’re much better than the Iranian sheep.
    I just love how brave Western intellectuals are to stay within the frame.
    You really have to stick your neck out with Colonial racism in the west. He went where no white man went before…

  32. I was pleased to see that not all the feedback here has been positive. Content notwithstanding (and you are always so very well prepared, James, and so on point with your questions and comments) I found this interview difficult to watch from a purely emotional standpoint. There is something about the personal chemistry between these two that rubbed me the wrong way, and I understand that this may be projection, but it served as fodder for my armchair efforts at psychoanalysis. My first thoughts were around cultural differences; Prof. Desmet seemed pompous, full of himself, and lacking in humour in a way I associate with some European intellectuals. My own Polish parents share those traits, and I always found their monologues insufferable. I imagined that James might have been squirming internally throughout the interview as I used to, subjected to my socially inept parents’ (ultimately bullying) diatribes; if you were, James, I hope you know that you handled yourself beautifully and have no need to prove anything to anyone anyway (but you DO realise that, right???!!).

  33. Desmet would probably join these in their scepticism of conspracies’ executed by a malevolent elite: ‘The following is an example of Deepak Chopra, Duane Elgin, Amy Goodman, Paul Hawken, Edgar Mitchell, John Perkins, John Robbins, Elisabet Sahtouris, Vandana Shiva, and Adam Trombly whose disbelief is ending up in a rationalized stockholm-syndrome in regard to the claims in the documentary film ‘Thrive’. Historians would write something like ‘these progressive and goodhearted pioneers with a huge following went very far, but ultimately not far enough, thus leading many people astray from the unpleasant but necessary truth due to their own disbelief and ignorance.

    From John Robbins’ Critique of THRIVE:

    “…theories at the heart of Thrive are based on an ultimate division between “us” and “them.” “We” are many and well-meaning but victimized.

    [Are farmers in India not victimized by Monsanto? – just one example – then why cannot it apply to other powerful entities wreaking havoc and destruction? Just because you don’t know

    “They,” on the other hand, are a tiny, greedy and inconceivably powerful few who are masterfully organized, who are purposefully causing massive disasters in order to cull the population, and who are deliberately destroying the world economy in order to achieve total world domination. This way of thinking has an allure, for it distracts and absolves us from the troubling truth that the real source of the problem is in all of us..

    [I ask; how are the farmers´lives in India absolved by pointing fingers at Monsanto as the concrete cause of GMO terminator tech?]

    … If the ills of the world are the deliberate intentions of malevolent beings, then we don’t have to take responsibility for our problems..

    [crazy logical fallacy, non sequiteur – how does the destruction of the farmers lives´ by Monsanto suddenly relinquish the farmers from self-responsibility for their own lives? It doesn’t!]

    Thinking this way may provide the momentary comfort of feeling exonerated, but it is ultimately disempowering, because it undermines our desire to be accountable for the way our own thoughts and actions”
    – unquote, John Robbins

  34. (continued): If the thinking above was true in regard to Monsanto fx. (read: deliberate destructive malevolent technology at the expense of billions of people). then nothing would be accomplished – regardless of whether we ourselves are compassionate, have integrated our shadows and opened our hearts, worked on ourselves internally, etc.

    It has nothing to do with being ‘absolved’ or ‘us vs them’ cause Monsanto’s destructive technologies, as well as chemtrails fx. will still be operational whether we meditate or not, whether we say ‘All is One’ or ‘Us VS them’ (fallacy of irrelevance).

    We could even establish perfect decentralized communities with highly individuated people, high interpersonal social intelligence, integrated shadows (in the Jungian sense), etc. and STILL be unaware of Monsanto’s terminator GMO technologies polluting the beautiful crops and gardens of such eco-villages. Monsanto’s destructive technologies will then STILL be operational whether we meditate or not. Being aware of their agenda is the prerequisite for overthrowing/stopping them.

    When something destructive is internalized as ‘normal’ is not on the radar of the collective consciousness as destructive, it is therefore not disposed for indignation on the part of the greater public (or the spiritual avantgarde), no cognition and no action, let alone the fact that much of it is invisible because of secrecy, i.e. Deep Politics.’

    • Very well articulated point. What I interpret is that we must still actually stop them from doing what they are doing in the physical world. They must be held accountable. I suppose the example of the toxic baby powder from Johnson and Johnson might be an example of how economic forces could be used. People stopped buying the toxic crap. I think communities can stop supporting these psychopathic companies like Monsanto and deprive them of their market. This is easier said than done if they use military force against us. In order to be free there may actually have to be a fight. I am not convinced this will be done peacefully. Sometimes there must be a fight.

    • I just think Desmet’stance can be ascribed to ignorance about deeper conspiracy realities ålus some psychologists typical tendency to ascribe responsibility to the individual only.

      A parallel can be found here btw:

      ‘The Buddha emphasized that his teaching was about understanding and ending dukkha (“suffering” in the broadest sense). So what about the dukkha caused by the ways institutions operate?

      Many corporate advocates argue that transformational change starts with oneself: if one’s mind can become more focused and peaceful, then social and organizational transformation will naturally follow. The problem with this formulation is that today the three unwholesome motivations that Buddhism highlights — greed, ill will, and delusion — are no longer confined to individual minds, but have become institutionalized into forces beyond personal control.

      Up to now, the mindfulness movement has avoided any serious consideration of why stress is so pervasive in modern business institutions. Instead, corporations have jumped on the mindfulness bandwagon because it conveniently shifts the burden onto the individual employee: stress is framed as a personal problem, and mindfulness is offered as just the right medicine to help employees work more efficiently and calmly within toxic environments. Cloaked in an aura of care and humanity, mindfulness is refashioned into a safety valve, as a way to let off steam — a technique for coping with and adapting to the stresses and strains of corporate life.

      The result is an atomized and highly privatized version of mindfulness practice, which is easily coopted and confined .. an “accommodationist” orientation. Mindfulness training has wide appeal because it has become a trendy method for subduing employee unrest, promoting a tacit acceptance of the status quo, and as an instrumental tool for keeping attention focused on institutional goals.

      In many respects, corporate mindfulness training — with its promise that calmer, less stressed employees will be more productive — has a close family resemblance to now-discredited “human relations” and sensitivity-training movements that were popular in the 1950s and 1960s. These training programs were criticized for their manipulative use of counseling techniques, such as “active listening,” deployed as a means for pacifying employees by making them feel that their concerns were heard while existing conditions in the workplace remained unchanged. These methods came to be referred to as “cow psychology,” because contented and docile cows give more milk.’
      – Beyond McMindfulness, professor Ronald Purser and Zen teacher David Loy

      I myself practice mindfulness in the right context but see through this mindless McDonalization, McMindfulness misuse….

      • Or perhaps he is in the beginning stage of realization and having to shuffle his world view. He could be having some cognitive dissonance going on.

      • FC

        I also find his remarkable denial strange.

        Not a new insight but in general; one acknowledges that which is in accordance with one’s schooling, conditioning, the map, and filters away – consciously of subconsciously – that which is not on the map. And more radically: You mistake the map for the territory, i.e. error in logical typing.

        He is not exempted from cognitive dissonance himself in regard to LIHOP vs MIHOP, deeper layers and so forth. I say ignorant cause he is not schooled in conspiracy realities at all, he only sliced a certain middle-layer of the NWO pyramid from a certain optics, but he himself seems to be rationalizing deeper causations away.

        An intelligent lawyer could see that the official story on 9/11 is BS but he still refused to call BS it at the same time. I’ve seen that kind of double-think schizophrenia before, which why I am not convinced that he is gaslighting his audience deliberately, but inadvertently, possibly as a result of his double-think…..or he is protecting his tenure….

    • Interesting video FC. “Vicarious redemption” being immoral and wrong because it removes personal responsibility. I agree with this. Scapegoating is wrong.

      • In addition punishing a being who is innocent. This does not make sense from an ethical standpoint. It is wrong to harm an innocent.

  35. Desmet: ‘…cause of the problems we are in now is not a malevolent elite, it’s a certain way of thinking which created both the elite and the psychological state of the population’

    Ponerology has a similar but at the same time different take:

    ‘When psychopaths are the policy makers in government and the CEOs of big business, the way they think and reason – their ‘morality’ – becomes the common culture and ‘morality’ of the population over which they preside. When this happens, the mind of the population is infected in the way a pathogen infects a physical body. The only way to protect ourselves against this pathological thinking is to inoculate ourselves against it, and that is done by learning as much as possible about the nature of psychopathy and its influence on us. Essentially, this particular ‘disease’ thrives in an environment where its very existence is denied, and this denial is PLANNED and DELIBERATE.’
    – The Trick of the Psychopath’s Trade: Make Us Believe that Evil Comes from Others

    Doctor Robert Malone realized quickly that BlackRock fx. was an essential culprit in the Corona operation and deliberately planned many years ago – while Desmet – in spite of his good points – hasn’t figured it out yet, and thus remains a lukewarm noodle in cognitively cold muddy waters just like most people. That’s his deficit and makes his analysis blind to Directed History run by secret societies whose planned evil cannot be compared to good-hearted empathic normal people at all, as they are not psychopaths, namely megalomanic elitist multi-generational psychopaths of a very very different psychological order and anathema (whose misdeeds also turn good-hearted people into zombies)

    • I don’t try to diminish Desmet’s theories – they might be great in their own right, and compatible with the theory of how secret societies operate, but he might downplay significant unseen causations, including the power elite’s pre-planned use of mass formation as social engineering in the Corona operation, not to mention many other Deep Events in Directed History. The theory of Directed History can include Desmet’s characterization of mass formation, but goes much further in terms of who/where/why planning. Compartmentalization makes huge conspiracies possible, so it’s misnomer that ‘all’ would have to be in-the-know in their separate tasks, since huge centralized executive programs are possible (Manhattan Project, wars, 9/11, etc.). That’s perhaps not the scope of his book, which I will have to wait for…

      • Its also more practical to change behaviors and communities. That is a good first step. Also no one is perfect so he is fallible like any one else. It was an interesting interview.

  36. In Corbett’s interview, Desmet recommended Charles Eisenstein’s stance on conspiracies as a more balanced approach.

    ‘In the end, I still haven’t said whether I think the New World Order conspiracy myth is true or not. Well actually yes I have. I have said it is true as a myth, regardless of its correspondence to verifiable facts.’
    – Eisenstein, The Conspiracy Myth. May 2020

    For some reason, in spite of some of Eisenstein’s admissions, his subtle and good analogies about conspiracies in the context of some sort psychological germ and terrain interplay (and some other points reminiscent of what I addressed previously here, his essay also reminded me of the following Neo-Advaita moral conundrum:

    One Western neo-advaitin has written, in the type of remark echoed repeatedly by other neo-advaitins: “Once awakening happens, it is seen that there is no such thing as right or wrong. All concepts of good or bad, karma or debt of any kind, are products of an unawakened mind”

    To this we can only reply: Oh really? Then the Buddha, Nāgārjuna, the Chan-Zen-Son masters, Śaṅkara, Ramana Mahārshi, Siddharāmeshvar Mahārāj, Nisargadatta Mahārāj and many, many other great advaitins were all by this neo-advaitin definition quite unenlightened, because all of them taught that, on the conventional level, we must still be able to distinguish between wholesome and unwholesome actions, and be well aware of karmic consequences. Non-dual reality is of the highest state imaginable but cannot be used as a guide for moral precepts on earth.

    ‘Taoism opened itself to misuse… proper “peace of mind” can actually accompany wrongful, even cruel and atrocious, actions. But this is the case. It is not to say, on the other hand, that Taoism and Ch’an are without value. They are of great interest and value …. Zen really may help both with archery and with motorcycle maintenance – just not as morality…. In Buddhist terms, the dharma as a moral teaching cannot be replaced with an incomprehensible transmission separate from the texts; and the blind obedience of the samurai, whether practicing Zen or Jôdo, was neither righteous action nor right livelihood.”
    – The Dark Side of Tao

    I am just going in the opposite direction of less-is-more today, thx for the tolerance (I rarely write on Corbett’s pages, so perhaps I can be excused 🙂

    With so repetition of jewish names, FC will be here in a flash in less than 1, 2, 3….lol

    • Lol!! Thanks for your insights, CN.

  37. Dear James, thank you very much for this phantastic interview. It helps understand so many things. It is hugely enlightening and educational, and it translates some fundamental wisdom and knowledge into modern, simple, understandable language that otherwise would be perhaps dismissed; glad that you made us to know Prof Desmet and his book. His teaching is scientific and poetic at the same time.

  38. I curious to know if months or years later, people recognize they were mentally manipulated in the mass formation psychosis? Or do they continue to feel what they were thinking was totally rational?

  39. FYI

    An astonishing BBC radio programme from 2009. Amazing it’s still online

    The BBC admitted supporting Khomeini by broadcasting his speeches and organising demonstrations for him in 1979. They claim two of their journalists went native and changed the course of history and no one noticed. LOL!

    There was a popular uprising against the Shah. The BBC turned it into an Islamic revolution using MI6 stooge Khomeini who was waiting his moment in a five star Paris hotel

    • Thanks!
      Pretty interesting so far

  40. How to fight the totalitarian tyranny? Music, memes and more!

  41. I listened to this guy three times. First time I immediately rejected the usefulness of the idea that people concentrating on a single subject could cause a mass formation psychosis event.

    This was a carefully planned event. I suspect it included the creation of the virus by the Americans, carried out by the Wuhan lab. The rest followed the Chinese lockdown, masks and social distancing as warm ups to the huge vaccine scam.

    Toward the end it seemed he was tacitly acknowledging the conspiracy but that’s a word that could damage the reputation, even the career of an academic.

  42. I watched this to perhaps discover why educated people are soo susceptible to this mass behaviour. Any ideas ?

  43. It would be interesting to have the written transcript to this interview. I’m going to listen more carefully to what was said. There are some good points mentioned here, but I do think as some have mentioned that Desmet does brush off some of the planning and direct manipulation and harm that is being done by string pullers or people who have substantial power. And though I do believe that people need to take the reins in their own lives and get rid of these controllers, or move toward a system of freedom and personal responsibility that will necessarily reduce convenience, we should not brush under the rug the fact that a group of people have tried to harm their “fellow man” to exploit, control, murder and cheat.

    I think it’s important not to lose sight of that because some are indeed more responsible and to blame than others.

    In other words, Fact checker above made some good points about obfuscation and bewilderment of the masses that some of these types of abstract nebulous analyses can create.

    What drew me to the Corbett Report was the concise fact driven analysis, following the money trail and looking at scientific studies and what not. That type of rational analysis is very important and is not mutually exclusive for also acknowledging the obvious reality that there are things that cannot be understood. It is possible to have both. In fact, I think it’s very rational to realize the limitations of scientific study and logic and empirical analyses. I don’t think that is the problem and I would encourage JC to use apply a critical analysis to Desmet’s conclusions. And I must admit that I don’t even understand his conclusions entirely. I will have to listen again.

    But very interesting conversation nonetheless.

    • It would also be interesting to read some of the Talmud, particularly the Babylonian Talmud to read what other views are expressed there. The moral discussions of rape and murder and cheating and such were very illuminating, what thought process was going on there.

      Without casting blame on followers who may find positive inspiration or spiritual guidance, read what some of it says. Also, actually go back and read some of the Old Testament in the Bible and the Torah part and see what words are written. Has that influenced what is unfolding now?

      And how to we get out of that self perpetuating destruction?

      For me personally, based on the horrible things I have read in both books, I chose to reject it for any kind of guidance in my own life. Maybe there are a few nuggets but not enough to mention either book as a reference text for how we should live our lives.

  44. Review (and rebuttal ) of the book by Peter Breggin.

    “We urge people to dismiss the distraction of “mass formation” and “mass hypnosis.” And we have no fear of largescale peaceful crowds protesting our loss of freedoms. We need mass noncompliance in our private and public lives against the totalitarianism now being forced upon us around the world. ”

  45. With all due respect, after having read “The Psychology of Totalitarianism”, I agree with Peter Breggin that Matthias Desmet is nothing else than an (un)conscious gaslighter himself, who wants to make us believe that the eternal conspiracy of the most powerful of the “2%” psychopaths for eternal domination over us “98%” empathetic humans is nothing else than a mass illusion.

    By Catherine Austin Fitts

    Peter Breggin and his brilliant wife Ginger have just published a serious review of The Psychology of Totalitarianism by Mattias Desmet and the dangers of his mass formation theory, in a three-part series.

    Highly recommended!

    Part One:

    Mattias Desmet Demoralizes the Freedom Movement – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse

    Part Two:

    Mattias Desmet Diagnoses Researchers as Mentally Disturbed – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse

    Part Three:

    Mattias Desmet Blames the Victims and Absolves the Perpetrators – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse

    Related Reading:

    Book Review: The Psychology of Totalitarianism by Mattias Desmet

    Special Solari Report: Mass Formation: A Decoy for Digital Concentration Camps with Dr. Peter Breggin

  46. James I would like you to do an interview with Peter Breggin and get his critical perspective on Mattias Desmet which after reading Desmet’s book and Breggin’s articles on Desmet, I agree with. Breggin’s analysis is I think accurate and amounts to this: Desmet’s public talks, and particularly his book, clearly show Desmet does NOT believe that “Covid-19 is a Criminal Conspiracy, rather he believes it is a Natural Virus and there are no Global Predator Elites behind his “Mass Formation”. Breggin makes a compelling case that Desmet is at best a self-promoting, postmodern intellectual who is blaming the victim and at worst one of the controlled opposition (a la Noam Chumpsy [sick], you know this “Gate Keeper”).
    I question how carefully you read his book? Perhaps like me you skimmed it and didn’t really catch the specifics especially in chapter 8. I went back and looked at the book closely as I was listening to the interview that Breggin did with Reiner Fuellmich and Vivane Fischer—which was followed by an interview with Desmet that Fisher did by herself. Desmet’s own words damn him. I invite you to go to my Substack article on this where his words hoist him with his own petard. So please, James, get Breggin on. Here is my Substack article on the Breggin, Desmet interviews by the Corona Investigative Committee:
    Juxtaposing: Peter Breggin & Mattias Desmet (English | Ad-Hoc 27 & Ad-Hoc 28)
    Here is a selection from Peter’s ongoing autopsy report on Desmet and his book:
    THREE-PART SERIES by Peter Breggin on Mattias Desmet
    All Three – Mattias Desmet: Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse? The Full Story July 27, 2022 43mins
    One – Mattias Desmet Demoralizes the Freedom Movement – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse July 22, 2022. 14mins
    Two – Mattias Desmet Diagnoses Researchers as Mentally Disturbed – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse July 23, 2022 19mins
    Three – Mattias Desmet Blames the Victims and Absolves the Perpetrators – Mass Hypnosis Expert or Trojan Horse July 24, 2022 11mins
    PSYCHOSIS. Peter and Ginger Breggin website on Mass Formation, many articles

  47. Dear James (all),

    I would like to second @ResponsiblyFree in asking to have a second, more critical, look on DeSmet. Besides the material RF provided, there is also a recent and, imho., very good critical review of his book on unlimitedhangout:

    This goes very much into the same direction: naïve at best, a gatekeeper more likely.

    There was quite a controversy about DeSmet on CJ Hopkin’s blog (I love his sarcastic comments), and indeed he opened my eyes to the many things that are to be criticized about DeSmet. This article on unlimitedhangout summarizes it brilliantly.

    Best, Tsepati

    • An absolutely fascinating article Tsepati! Thank you very much for posting it!
      Beyond being caught up in a binary Desmet good/Desmet bad controversy, the article very articulately evokes very important and provocative points of reflection, aptly referring to Jung, about the individual vs society. I’ve only barely read the first half and look forward to reading the rest asap but in the meantime the following are phrases that stood out to me:

      “should be understood in terms of mass psychology rather than malicious, intentional deception

      Desmet’s book ironically models the very kind of thinking it aims to critique.

      The bewildered herd

      the masses get the propaganda, according to Lippmann and Bernays, and the totalitarianism, according to Desmet, that their base psychological functioning demands.

      while psychoanalyzing tyranny, the theory paradoxically serves as an attractive and intellectually satisfying system-justifying veil behind which the architects of atrocity can hide.

      Hence, the banality of evil. Just as sexually assaulting victims with medical equipment was described as “enhanced interrogation” in the War on Terror, so mass killing is disguised using anodyne-sounding medical language for the War on Covid-19™.

      In the same vein, the very term “Mass Formation” is sanitizing.

      I hadn’t posted on this Desmet page because I felt uneasy with a vague sentiment that something was gravely wrong about the Belgian’s exposé without taking the time and trouble to clarify my thoughts. As profoundly irritated as I am (in an ignorant and arrogant sort of way) with my “unseeing” entourage who seem complacent with tyranny, this article seems thusfar to be making what should be an obvious point which is: The torturers are torturers even if some of the victims are masochists.

      gotta run like a misrepresented lemming into the hamsterwheel now!

      Thanks again!

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